Re: [Zope3-Users] Zope eggification - impressions

2008-02-05 Thread Jim Fulton


On Feb 5, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Hermann Himmelbauer wrote:


Hi,
At first, thanks to the newest Zope-3.4.0c1 release. I just  
installed it from

the tarball and it seems to work.

However, I'm still somehow technically overwhelmed by installing  
Zope3 the
egg-style way - maybe it's not that hard, but I can't really find a  
good
entry point to that topic. It would probably also be a good thing to  
outline
this at the zope.org website (btw., the releases listed there are  
quite old).


For a beginner like me, I'm confronted with a lot of technical (and
complicated) things, where I don't know what I need or what to choose
(buildout, zopeproject, Egg, PyPi, SVN, grok, setuptools etc.), so  
something
like a Howto install Zope3 the Egg-style way would be very, very  
handy.



+1

Jim

--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope3-Users] Zope eggification - impressions

2008-02-05 Thread Martijn Faassen
Hey,

On Feb 5, 2008 3:49 PM, Hermann Himmelbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 At first, thanks to the newest Zope-3.4.0c1 release. I just installed it from
 the tarball and it seems to work.

 However, I'm still somehow technically overwhelmed by installing Zope3 the
 egg-style way - maybe it's not that hard, but I can't really find a good
 entry point to that topic. It would probably also be a good thing to outline
 this at the zope.org website (btw., the releases listed there are quite old).

 For a beginner like me, I'm confronted with a lot of technical (and
 complicated) things, where I don't know what I need or what to choose
 (buildout, zopeproject, Egg, PyPi, SVN, grok, setuptools etc.), so something
 like a Howto install Zope3 the Egg-style way would be very, very handy.

For Grok, just go to the 'download' page on grok.zope.org (or for a
more extensive introduction, the first section of the tutorial). It
will
tell you all you need to know to install Grok. We could use more
documentation on how to proceed
after that using buildout, though.

The Zope 3 you'll end up installing for Grok will end up differently
than if you install Zope 3 some other way, as Grok
requires slightly different versions of many libraries. You can set up
your buildout configuration in such a way that
if there is a version of a library to reuse, it will, so it won't
re-download it if it's not needed. grokproject in fact does this
for you too (a shared buildout-eggs directory is created).

The other methods of installing Zope 3 are different, but I think we
have reasonable install documentation for Grok at least. This is
probably related to the focus Grok has on helping beginners get up to
speed (and making life easier for experts).

If you have any problems or feedback to the Grok installation
procedure, we hope to hear from you in grok-dev!

Regards,

Martijn
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Re: [Zope3-Users] Zope eggification - impressions

2008-02-05 Thread Baiju M

Jim Fulton wrote:


 On Feb 5, 2008, at 9:49 AM, Hermann Himmelbauer wrote:

 Hi, At first, thanks to the newest Zope-3.4.0c1 release. I just
 installed it from the tarball and it seems to work.

 However, I'm still somehow technically overwhelmed by installing
 Zope3 the egg-style way - maybe it's not that hard, but I can't
 really find a good entry point to that topic. It would probably
 also be a good thing to outline this at the zope.org website (btw.,
  the releases listed there are quite old).

 For a beginner like me, I'm confronted with a lot of technical (and
  complicated) things, where I don't know what I need or what to
 choose (buildout, zopeproject, Egg, PyPi, SVN, grok, setuptools
 etc.), so something like a Howto install Zope3 the Egg-style way
 would be very, very handy.

 +1


+1

In fact, I started an effort to document this, but I want more help
from this group.  I had announced two book projects to this list earlier.
The first one was a failure [1], but the second one I succeded with
help from you all [2].  I am going to re-start the first effort
again, I hope this time it will be a success :)

The new book, Web Application Development Using Python and
Zope Components will be available from here:
http://wadupaz.muthukadan.net/

I welcome all of you to join this effort here: 
https://launchpad.net/wadupaz

You can create branches there (no need to become a member - just a
launchpad.net login would be enough)


[1] http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/ZopeGuide
[2] http://muthukadan.net/docs/zca.html

Regards,
Baiju M

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Re: [Zope3-Users] Zope eggification - impressions

2008-02-05 Thread Hermann Himmelbauer
Am Mittwoch, 6. Februar 2008 18:24 schrieb Baiju M:
 In fact, I started an effort to document this, but I want more help
 from this group.  I had announced two book projects to this list earlier.
 The first one was a failure [1], but the second one I succeded with
 help from you all [2].  I am going to re-start the first effort
 again, I hope this time it will be a success :)

 The new book, Web Application Development Using Python and
 Zope Components will be available from here:
 http://wadupaz.muthukadan.net/

Thanks for the link and your effort, this is somehow helpful. However, I have 
the following suggestions (regarding the buildout part):

1) Like so often in the Zope world, I miss the big picture - I (or better, 
the newbies) don't really know what's happening here. What exactly is 
buildout? What's an Egg/setuptools/PyPi? (references would also help here). 
I'd very much appreciate illustrations, something like simple block diagrams 
that show, for example, how buildout pulls together needed modules.

2) Much content is in a recipe-like fashion, for instance on page 4 you 
specify in install_requires zope.app.zcmlfiles, zope.app.twisted and 
zope.app.securitypolicy. Why do you use exactly these modules? Are they the 
very minimum for Zope3? What about other modules, e.g. formlib? Is there some 
overview for available modules?

3) Page 5 and 6 is not understandable for newcomers - they can simply cut  
paste the code but they will never know what happens here as they lack the 
knowledge of e.g. what a ZopeSecurityPolicy is, how the ZopeDB works etc. I, 
too, don't really know where my instance data will be situated (var/, log/, 
site-packages/ etc/). I think things would be a lot easier if the user can 
call some mkzopeinstance script as in the tarballs that does this stuff for 
him.

4) When using eggs, packages are normally kept in an .egg file, therefore I 
can't have a look at the Zope3 source code - which is inevitable for Zope3 
development. AFAIK, there's some option that lets easy_install decompress the 
eggs and install it in plain text, is this also the case in your book?

5) The book gives me the overall impression that installing Zope3 the 
egg-style way requires me to do quite some really complicated stuff I even 
don't really understand in full depth. Compared to that, installing Zope3 
from the tarball is a lot easier - it's basically about ./configure, make 
install, mkzopeinstance, which is not complicated at all.

Best Regards,
Hermann.

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