Re: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-23 Thread Tres Seaver

"Andy McKay" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
 
  hi,
 
  I'm kind of surprised that Active State has such a big promo on Zope.org's
  site considering they use IIS; and considering the blurb talks about how
  much they do for Open Source.
 
 We use IIS for many reasons, it's fast and we use some of products in
 conjunction with it. To suggest that using IIS is somehow "wrong" confuses
 me, Zope.org doesn't use ZServer.

Strictly speaking, not true -- the host your browser connects to is
first
a load-balancer, then an Apache instance;  Apache is proxying for
ZServer.
See http://www.zope.org/About for details.

Otherwise, I'd agree with the rest of your points.

 For me the flexibilty of using Zope any
 way we see fit is its greatest strength. We made a decision to serve
 "static" content using a simple fast server and dynamic content using Zope.
 
 Actually we have the main web site in Zope. Its the CMS for the main web
 site and only accessible internally. This allows multiple users to access
 and make changes, templating and so on. Since this content changes very
 rarely we use wget hack to move the information to the main web site to be
 served by IIS, since IIS can serve out many more pages per second that Zope
 can (because it is doing some much less). This is a "right product for the
 right job" decision.
 
 For the dynamic portions (mailing list arcive etc.) we use Zope and ZServer
 quite happily on the front end. One day we may move to having the whole site
 in Zope, who knows :).
 
 As mentioned we do a great deal for Open Source (ActivePerl, ActivePython,
 PyXPCOM, PPM and so on) to name a just a bit. ActiveState is one of the very
 few companies where we pay people to hack open source stuff all day. In the
 same way Guido works for DC and spends time on Python, we have many talented
 Python and Perl developers (David Ascher, Paul Prescod, Gurusamy Sarathy,
 Jan Dubois) who in put a great deal of Open Source work.

Tres.
-- 
===
Tres Seaver[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Digital Creations "Zope Dealers"   http://www.zope.org

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[Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-22 Thread Jason C. Leach

hi,

I'm kind of surprised that Active State has such a big promo on Zope.org's
site considering they use IIS; and considering the blurb talks about how
much they do for Open Source.

j.

..
. Jason C. Leach
... University College of the Cariboo.
.. 


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Re: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-22 Thread Martijn Pieters

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 12:35:53AM -0800, Jason C. Leach wrote:
 I'm kind of surprised that Active State has such a big promo on Zope.org's
 site considering they use IIS; and considering the blurb talks about how
 much they do for Open Source.

If you read the case study, you'll see that they use Zope extensively for
their mailing list archives, their documentation and the CPAN info server.

ActiveState, like many companies (Greenpeace springs to mind) is using
Zope to build new sites. Existing websites often have cost lots of time
and money to build, not everyone is ready to immediatly dump the existing
code for something else, however much better.

And if you browse the ActiveState site some more, you'll see what they do
for OSS. Who says that an OSS shop needs to run exclusively on OSS or has
no right to sell software solutions? We at Digital Creations also use
Windows NT and other commercial software, and our services also come with
a price tag.

-- 
Martijn Pieters
| Software Engineer  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Digital Creations  http://www.digicool.com/
| Creators of Zope   http://www.zope.org/
-

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RE: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-22 Thread Jonathan \(Listserv Account\)

 And if you browse the ActiveState site some more, you'll see
 what they do for OSS. Who says that an OSS shop needs to run
 exclusively on OSS or has no right to sell software
 solutions? We at Digital Creations also use Windows NT and
 other commercial software, and our services also come with
 a price tag.

Well put. Couldn't agree more. Take the best tool for the job, based not
only on software quality and price, but also on development time,
available expertise and stuff that's already in place. In some cases
that means you can build a totally open solution based on OSS. In other
cases it means a closed solution based on Microsoft products for
example.

In most cases however it's a mix of multiple hardware and software
platforms, in which OSS fits well because of the 'Open' part. I for one
will recommend OSS most of the time (because of price, performance,
managebility and stability), but there are a number of situations where
a 'closed' piece of software is a better fit.

HTH
Jonathan


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Re: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-22 Thread Gregor Hoffleit

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 11:32:29AM +0100, Martijn Pieters wrote:
 And if you browse the ActiveState site some more, you'll see what they do
 for OSS.

 Who says that an OSS shop needs to run exclusively on OSS or has
 no right to sell software solutions? 

 We at Digital Creations also use Windows NT and other commercial software,
 and our services also come with a price tag. 

Just for the record:

The "right to sell software solutions" and the right to do "services with a
price tag" are even very crucial and important points in the world of free
software (read about RMS position in "Selling Free Software" at
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html).

What the free software community dislikes is selling *proprietary* software
solutions.

In my own words: Money flow is no problem at all, as long as it doesn't take
away any crucial freedoms ;-).

Gregor


PS: The crucial point about selling free software is certainly that you get
paid for the solution and for the work being done, not for the license to
use the software.

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Re: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-22 Thread Andy McKay

 hi,

 I'm kind of surprised that Active State has such a big promo on Zope.org's
 site considering they use IIS; and considering the blurb talks about how
 much they do for Open Source.

We use IIS for many reasons, it's fast and we use some of products in
conjunction with it. To suggest that using IIS is somehow "wrong" confuses
me, Zope.org doesn't use ZServer. For me the flexibilty of using Zope any
way we see fit is its greatest strength. We made a decision to serve
"static" content using a simple fast server and dynamic content using Zope.

Actually we have the main web site in Zope. Its the CMS for the main web
site and only accessible internally. This allows multiple users to access
and make changes, templating and so on. Since this content changes very
rarely we use wget hack to move the information to the main web site to be
served by IIS, since IIS can serve out many more pages per second that Zope
can (because it is doing some much less). This is a "right product for the
right job" decision.

For the dynamic portions (mailing list arcive etc.) we use Zope and ZServer
quite happily on the front end. One day we may move to having the whole site
in Zope, who knows :).

As mentioned we do a great deal for Open Source (ActivePerl, ActivePython,
PyXPCOM, PPM and so on) to name a just a bit. ActiveState is one of the very
few companies where we pay people to hack open source stuff all day. In the
same way Guido works for DC and spends time on Python, we have many talented
Python and Perl developers (David Ascher, Paul Prescod, Gurusamy Sarathy,
Jan Dubois) who in put a great deal of Open Source work.

Cheers.

--
  Andy McKay, Developer.
  ActiveState.

 j.

 ..
 . Jason C. Leach
 ... University College of the Cariboo.
 ..


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Re: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-22 Thread Martijn Pieters

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 09:42:51AM -0800, Andy McKay wrote:
 Zope.org doesn't use ZServer.

Small technicality: Zope.org *does* use ZServer. See:

  http://www.zope.org/About

We use Apache with ProxyPass, because of of the configuration flexibility
and caching of images and files. But Apache talks to Zope via ZServer.

-- 
Martijn Pieters
| Software Engineer  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Digital Creations  http://www.digicool.com/
| Creators of Zope   http://www.zope.org/
-

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Re: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-22 Thread Andy McKay

Good point. Apache does talk to ZServer, I was referring to the most
front-end component, which is what the user sees. For all anybody knows we
could be using ZServer behind IIS using pcgi. We aren't, but we could, in
fact that would have been a very cocky answer...
--
  Andy McKay.


- Original Message -
From: "Martijn Pieters" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Andy McKay" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org


 On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 09:42:51AM -0800, Andy McKay wrote:
  Zope.org doesn't use ZServer.

 Small technicality: Zope.org *does* use ZServer. See:

   http://www.zope.org/About

 We use Apache with ProxyPass, because of of the configuration flexibility
 and caching of images and files. But Apache talks to Zope via ZServer.

 --
 Martijn Pieters
 | Software Engineer  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 | Digital Creations  http://www.digicool.com/
 | Creators of Zope   http://www.zope.org/
 -

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Re: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-22 Thread Andy McKay

As per Martijn's comment, yes all sites use ZServer you are correct. Sorry
for any confusion. I was refering to the most front visible component, but
did not make that clear.
--
  Andy McKay.


- Original Message -
From: "Steve Drees" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Zope@Zope. Org" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 11:40 AM
Subject: RE: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org


  We use IIS for many reasons, it's fast and we use some of products in
  conjunction with it. To suggest that using IIS is somehow "wrong"
confuses
  me, Zope.org doesn't use ZServer. For me the flexibilty of using Zope
any


 Doesn't every Zope site use ZServer? These statements always confuse me.
 When I ./start zope aren't I starting ZServer?



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Re: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-22 Thread Martijn Pieters

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 01:40:07PM -0600, Steve Drees wrote:
  We use IIS for many reasons, it's fast and we use some of products in
  conjunction with it. To suggest that using IIS is somehow "wrong" confuses
  me, Zope.org doesn't use ZServer. For me the flexibilty of using Zope any
 
 Doesn't every Zope site use ZServer? These statements always confuse me.
 When I ./start zope aren't I starting ZServer?

You can also use PCGI to start a single threaded Zope without ZServer.
This used to be the only way in the olden days. Not many people use it
anymore.

-- 
Martijn Pieters
| Software Engineer  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Digital Creations  http://www.digicool.com/
| Creators of Zope   http://www.zope.org/
-

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RE: [Zope] ActiveState on Zope.org

2001-01-22 Thread Steve Drees

 We use IIS for many reasons, it's fast and we use some of products in
 conjunction with it. To suggest that using IIS is somehow "wrong" confuses
 me, Zope.org doesn't use ZServer. For me the flexibilty of using Zope any


Doesn't every Zope site use ZServer? These statements always confuse me.
When I ./start zope aren't I starting ZServer?



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