Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
On Apr 8, 2005 12:15 AM, Andreas Pakulat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, could you (just for my own interest) point out the difference between PropertySheets and ProperyManager (which I used to define properies for my own product-classes)? IIRC PropertySheets allow to have multiple groups of properties on the same Object, but is there more? If I remember correctly, it also allows you do have the property definition stored somewhere else than on the object itself, and is allows you to store the properties somewhere else than as attributes. It's a bit complex to use, and the property types definitions are too inflexible for practical use, which is why archetypes, CPSSchemas and Zope3 schemas exists now. :-) -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jim Fulton wrote: Jake wrote: My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses I doubt that that is the case. Sorry, I missread your note. I meant to say that I was sure you are *not* the only one using ZClasses. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
On Wednesday 06 April 2005 16:52, Dieter Maurer wrote: For new projects, you should investigate the new options. Product development will get much simpler with Zope3 technology (and its schemas and views). Currently, there is no TTW (Through The Web) development in Zope3 land, but that is planned. In about 2 to 4 years, we may have new ZClass like functionality implemented with Zope3 technology. And I am quite confident that the old ZClasses will live til then... Note that I prototyped such functionality a couple years ago. One could create TTW (Persistent) schemas and then declare a Content Component Definition based on this schema. People could then create instances of those content components. The Content Component Definition utility took care of doing all the security and basic menu/view setup. One can then write views and adapters for the content component to give it functionality. Unfortunately, persistent schemas got broken at some point, so the code is not that useful anymore. I really need to get together with Jim and force him to fix the problem with me, since I constantly forget what the problem is. ;-) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: zope@zope.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jonathan Cyr wrote at 2005-4-6 16:06 -0400: ... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed, and the horse I rode in on. Do not worry too much! Jim proposed to keep ZClasses alive until (at least) Zope 2.10. And he asks whether there is enough interest to keep them longer... [...] In fact, I have had ten times more problems with Archetypes (which I use now) than with ZClasses (which I used formerly). Isn't Archetypes only for Plone? I mean, Plone is a very good *application* but I don't want to be locked on it. Just release a way to convert a Zclass to a Python Product (at least for the simplest ZClasses...). I'm stil stuck on convert that damn base class CatalogAware to CatalogPathAware, just to name something (CatalogAware) which is still there for no reason... :) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Thank You for giving me a
timeframe for this stuff. 4 to 6 years is indeed a long time. That
would, in effect triple the lifespan of my project, and be far more
reasonable.
It was the "yeah, dump it today" remarks that set me off. These
remarks are shortsighted at best, and harmful to Zope's PR at worst.
Thanks for the response, I will contribute where I can.
-Jon
Dieter Maurer wrote:
Jonathan Cyr wrote at 2005-4-6 16:06 -0400:
... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate
Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't
any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed,
and the horse I rode in on.
Do not worry too much!
Jim proposed to keep ZClasses alive until (at least) Zope 2.10.
And he asks whether there is enough interest to keep them longer...
If the Zope 2 releases progress in the same speed seen recently,
then Zope 2.10 will come in 4 to 6 years. That's a lot of time.
Of course, it is planned that future release cycles are much shorter
(one release every 6 months) but I do not yet buy that this will
indeed happen. Almost all releases were planned much earlier
than they happened.
And, we can keep ZClasses alive, at least until the next major
"Persistency" shakeup (after Jim made them working again for
the current "Persistency" shakeup) -- even when they are no longer
in the core.
In fact, I have had ten times more problems with Archetypes (which
I use now) than with ZClasses (which I used formerly).
It is true (and sad) that there are no unit tests for ZClasses
but ZClasses just broke twice in the past across releases
and the community quickly found
workarounds. These fixes were found much faster than those
for the security problems which were introduced from time to
time into Zope through security shakeups -- despite the fact
that there are unit tests for the security subsystem.
Thus, the right approach (in my view) is that all users
of ZClasses tell Jim, that ZClasses are used and interesting.
ZClasses may nevertheless get deprecated but probably kept
longer then Zope 2.10 unless they cause major problems.
For new projects, you should investigate the new options.
Product development will get much simpler with Zope3 technology
(and its schemas and views). Currently, there is no TTW
("Through The Web") development in Zope3 land, but that is planned.
In about 2 to 4 years, we may have new ZClass like
functionality implemented with Zope3 technology.
And I am quite confident that the old ZClasses will live til
then...
And so here's the confession... "Hello, I'm Jon... I've used Zope for 2
years, and I can't help others program high-level Python OOP
tools/platform resources in a propriety web content management server.
I only can support their efforts when the occasional mailing list
opportunities present themselves."
That's fine. Continue with this support!
Do not worry too much about ZClasses. They will stay
for a significant time because Jim plans to take the next
major hurdle (thank you, Jim!).
After that, probably only small changes will
be necessary -- as in the past. We, the ZClass users, can
manage these minor changes -- as we did in the past.
___
Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
** No cross posts or HTML encoding! **
(Related lists -
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Yuri wrote at 2005-4-7 14:30 +0200: ... Isn't Archetypes only for Plone? No, it can be used with pure CMF... ... if one is ready to fix a few Plone dependencies that creep in in most Archetype releases. ... Just release a way to convert a Zclass to a Python Product (at least for the simplest ZClasses...). Unfortunaltely, even the most elementary things are missing: PropertySheet are one of the most essential parts of ZClasses -- and they can be extended later and all ZInstances see the changes. PropertySheets are available for non ZClasses as well. But, this code is even less maintained than ZClasses and utterly broken. When I used them for a Python product, I had to fight for two days and had to heavily modify Zope code to get them working. I submitted a patch to the Zope collector but I had removed one bit of black magic too much -- and other products broke that were dependent on this magic. My patch which were already integrated into the Zope sources were reverted and never considered again (though I provided a correction) Thus, PropertySheets are still utterly broken (outside of our private Zope copy). I'm stil stuck on convert that damn base class CatalogAware to CatalogPathAware, just to name something (CatalogAware) which is still there for no reason... :) One of my first steps in Zope land was to put Zope in cvs and fix whatever I considered broken. Maintaining one's private Zope version in a revision control system allows to fix bugs without loosing the ability to upgrade to new public versions (and semi automatically have the own modifications merged in). -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
On 07.Apr 2005 - 20:13:58, Dieter Maurer wrote: Yuri wrote at 2005-4-7 14:30 +0200: ... Isn't Archetypes only for Plone? No, it can be used with pure CMF... ... if one is ready to fix a few Plone dependencies that creep in in most Archetype releases. ... Just release a way to convert a Zclass to a Python Product (at least for the simplest ZClasses...). Unfortunaltely, even the most elementary things are missing: PropertySheet are one of the most essential parts of ZClasses -- and they can be extended later and all ZInstances see the changes. PropertySheets are available for non ZClasses as well. But, this code is even less maintained than ZClasses and utterly broken. Hmm, could you (just for my own interest) point out the difference between PropertySheets and ProperyManager (which I used to define properies for my own product-classes)? IIRC PropertySheets allow to have multiple groups of properties on the same Object, but is there more? Andreas -- Write yourself a threatening letter and pen a defiant reply. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
- Original Message - From: Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] (...) I submitted a patch to the Zope collector but I had removed one bit of black magic too much -- and other products broke that were dependent on this magic. My patch which were already integrated into the Zope sources were reverted and never considered again (though I provided a correction) Thus, PropertySheets are still utterly broken (outside of our private Zope copy). If that's what it takes to try a ZClasses-PythonProduct converter, then my logic tells me core maintainers should allow that patch to find it's way to the official release. Did I miss something regarding the calls to help? Because if that happens to Dieter's willingness, then what would happen to ours? ;) Ausum ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
(Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 06:46:23PM -0400) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote/schrieb/egrapse: From: Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book. Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which does not yet feature at all in the Zope book). I don't know if I'm living under a rock or something, but I'm using Zope on and off since about 2.5.1, and I've barely heard about archetypes. So far I did not come across a simple introduction, tutorial, or even explanation of them. Of course I haven't searched, but I guess that is the point of Dieters remark. ZClasses, external methods and to some extend Python products byte you the moment you get to the Zope documentation. The new stuff is that stuff I hear the buzzwords flying around, but once I touch something of it, I'm lost pretty fast. If something is the new and recommended way of doing things, it should be first place in the docs. The Zope Bible has Python products before other stuff IIRC, good. If the new stuff is so great and easy to use, it should also be easy to put some documentation of it in Chapter 2 or 3 of whatever the Zope Docs will be. As for the question of depreciating ZClasses: I had started out with ZClasses once, got to know the limitations and am now doing Python products. I've learned a lot using ZClasses, as one can jumble and play around with object orientation much easier. Python products offer a much steeper wall, there is much more that has to be just right just to get started. So if the new stuff offers that easy intro playground and has adequate docs, then replace ZClasses. And btw, keep up the good work, thanks! Sascha -- http://betabug.ch/blogs/ch-athens ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
On Apr 6, 2005, at 6:59, Andreas Jung wrote: --On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer. We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then they should take over some responsibility in maintaining them in future releases. It can not be that a feature regarded as obsolete (from the majority) and almost unmaintained and untouched since ages holds up further releases. Amen. Actually, instead of maintaining them in the core the current users should immediately look at breaking it out of the core into a separate product, as suggested earlier, and maintain that product. I believe that would make it simpler both from a Zope maintainer perspective as well as from the ZClass maintainers' perspective. jens ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
About archetypes... Documentation http://plone.org/documentation/archetypes Nice presentation (in French) : http://lsm2004.abul.org/IMG/pdf/slides_-_zope_archetypes_-_Gilles_Lenfant_.p df (look at the links on page 35) Pascal -Message d'origine- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] la part de Sascha Welter Envoyé : mercredi 6 avril 2005 09:44 À : zope@zope.org Objet : Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? (Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 06:46:23PM -0400) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote/schrieb/egrapse: From: Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book. Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which does not yet feature at all in the Zope book). I don't know if I'm living under a rock or something, but I'm using Zope on and off since about 2.5.1, and I've barely heard about archetypes. So far I did not come across a simple introduction, tutorial, or even explanation of them. Of course I haven't searched, but I guess that is the point of Dieters remark. ZClasses, external methods and to some extend Python products byte you the moment you get to the Zope documentation. The new stuff is that stuff I hear the buzzwords flying around, but once I touch something of it, I'm lost pretty fast. If something is the new and recommended way of doing things, it should be first place in the docs. The Zope Bible has Python products before other stuff IIRC, good. If the new stuff is so great and easy to use, it should also be easy to put some documentation of it in Chapter 2 or 3 of whatever the Zope Docs will be. As for the question of depreciating ZClasses: I had started out with ZClasses once, got to know the limitations and am now doing Python products. I've learned a lot using ZClasses, as one can jumble and play around with object orientation much easier. Python products offer a much steeper wall, there is much more that has to be just right just to get started. So if the new stuff offers that easy intro playground and has adequate docs, then replace ZClasses. And btw, keep up the good work, thanks! Sascha -- http://betabug.ch/blogs/ch-athens ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
I don't know if I'm living under a rock or something, but I'm using Zope on and off since about 2.5.1, and I've barely heard about archetypes. So far I did not come across a simple introduction, tutorial, or even explanation of them. The new stuff mentioned on this thread is the zope 3 component architecture. With zope 2.8 it will be possible to start using the same ideas (although not 100% compatible). This will definitely be the new recommended way to do development, if not in 2.8, then in 2.9, which hopefully will have great compatibilty with zope3. As mentioned, it is very important that the documentation get updated to reflect this. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Is this a kafkanian situation? Are really core developers asking the community to kick a used Zope's feature, saying it's because it's hard to maintain it, and simultaneously to say it's code 'unmaintained and untouched since ages'? Folks, you didn't need to ask for the aproval of people who didn't make it with that feature. You just do it. You're the ones that create the knots and know for sure where they are, and if you aren't in the mood anymore just give the thing over. :) As of your remarks, Andreas, I understand your point. People who care should take over. Sounds fair. Just please don't mean that we who say yes to a Jim's question are guilty of not letting Zope to move on, because Zope is moving to X3, not to 2.X+five, and definitely not to Archetypes, a CMF subject. As for ZC, IMHO the issue should be treated as a matter of understanding the market rather than achieving a milestone. You created stuff that works in some way or another that people embraced. You also changed your company name to the name of the product of yours that people embraced. And no matter how much hype there is on new trends, you should realize that a song is just a song until the market say it's a hit, and that X3 is that song. Shall you start to put Zope2 into pieces before getting to know you already have a hit? :) Ausum - Original Message - From: Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: zope@zope.org Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
--On Mittwoch, 6. April 2005 12:59 Uhr -0500 Ausum Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this a kafkanian situation? Are really core developers asking the community to kick a used Zope's feature, saying it's because it's hard to maintain it, and simultaneously to say it's code 'unmaintained and untouched since ages'? I have not seen any significant changes to ZClasses since Zope 2.4/2.5 or so (that's when I started working for ZC and learned about Zope). Now they broke in Zope 2.8 and kept up the release and maybe only a small number of people have the wisdom to maintain and fix outstanding issues. As for ZC, IMHO the issue should be treated as a matter of understanding the market rather than achieving a milestone. You created stuff that works in some way or another that people embraced. You also changed your company name to the name of the product of yours that people embraced. And no matter how much hype there is on new trends, you should realize that a song is just a song until the market say it's a hit, and that X3 is that song. Shall you start to put Zope2 into pieces before getting to know you already have a hit? :) I don't understand what you want to say with that but ZC also lives from the community and the community lives to a certain part of the work of ZC. So is all about giving and taking :-) -aj pgpMoblDfI5EC.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Yoohoo, ZClasses are not an expert technology to use, they are an introduction to Zope... Just because I use a thing, doesn't mean I can support/maintain a thing. I can read the list, and try to help folks with questions that I've experienced... that's the support that can be offered at my skill level. If that's not enough... fine... drop ZClasses, then DTML (you know, its next)... and all the folks in this boat with me. ZC should decide whether the benefits of ZClasses for low-end developers match against the hurdles to keeping it with the newer Zope releases. If they don't see a need for this skill-level type of tool in Zope's feature list, they will pay down the road... Growth is king, even for Zope, who grew this platform? Growth means newbies, right? What elements got Zope to where it is? Could ZClasses be on that list? Why? And seeing comments like... - "Move to Zope Python Products" - you cant see the skill differences between OOP Zope's API vs. ZClasses - "Use the Archetypes/CMF/Plone setup" - UML training? the CMF API and Plone underpinnings, easy? - "Maintain it yourself then" - Update very slick code within Zope's flexible and aging API, with ZODB API too? Maintain it...Yeah sure, hows this afternoon. ... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed, and the horse I rode in on. And so here's the confession... "Hello, I'm Jon... I've used Zope for 2 years, and I can't help others program high-level Python OOP tools/platform resources in a propriety web content management server. I only can support their efforts when the occasional mailing list opportunities present themselves." -Jon Cyr, Intermediate Zope Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Andreas Jung wrote: --On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer. We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then they should take over some responsibility in maintaining them in future releases. It can not be that a "feature" regarded as obsolete (from the majority) and almost unmaintained and untouched since ages holds up further releases. I agree with Jim that they should be officially deprecated - means they could be removed in Zope 2.10. We could leave them longer if they should work in further releases without further work. If there are serious problems in further releases with ZClasses holding up a new release we should kick them. So if you depend on ZClasseslearn how they are implemented and maintain them in the future. But from the prospective of limited resource it is not reasonable to spend much time on ZClasses in the future. -aj ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.4 - Release Date: 4/6/2005 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
--On Mittwoch, 6. April 2005 16:06 Uhr -0400 Jonathan Cyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yoohoo, ZClasses are not an expert technology to use, they are an introduction to Zope... Just because I use a thing, doesn't mean I can support/maintain a thing. I can read the list, and try to help folks with questions that I've experienced... that's the support that can be offered at my skill level. There are better ways to learn Zope than by using ZClasses. They should no longer be mentioned e.g. in the Zope Book. If that's not enough... fine... drop ZClasses, then DTML (you know, its next)... and all the folks in this boat with me. That's nonsense. Open-source is a giving and taking. Ok, you can demand something *but* the resources of the people giving something to you are limited and restricted by several constraints (company needs, personal time etc.). As said a bunch of times earlier ZClasses help up the 2.8 release. Every software has its life-cycle it is sometimes a good thing to drop old things over board *if* they tend to cause serious problems. This is here the case. So my proposal was to deprecate them officially in 2.8 with the possibility to kick them in 2.10 or later. Read carefully (possibility). Means if they do not hurt in 2.10 or 2.11 then could stay but ZClasses could be removed if major resources would be necessary to fix them. ZC should decide whether the benefits of ZClasses for low-end developers match against the hurdles to keeping it with the newer Zope releases. If they don't see a need for this skill-level type of tool in Zope's feature list, they will pay down the road... Growth is king, even for Zope, who grew this platform? Growth means newbies, right? What elements got Zope to where it is? Could ZClasses be on that list? Why? And seeing comments like... - Move to Zope Python Products - you cant see the skill differences between OOP Zope's API vs. ZClasses - Use the Archetypes/CMF/Plone setup - UML training? the CMF API and Plone underpinnings, easy? If you are a somewhat clever (I assume you are) than you should be able to adopt these technologies with a resonable amout of time. Using AT as an example is easy and *more* straight forward than using ZClasses where you can run against the wall very easily. From the programmers experiences these frameworks are the future and definitely not ZClasses. - Maintain it yourself then - Update very slick code within Zope's flexible and aging API, with ZODB API too? Maintain it...Yeah sure, hows this afternoon. See aboveif you have a need or interest in keep ZClasses you could pay Jim some USD to fix ZClasses for you. I don't see it as a responsibility to provide backward-compatibility for all and everything for ages. It would be nice to have that *but* our resources are limited - they are especially limited because I see little interest of the community helping out in Zope areas where work must be done. Means the active people in the Zope community have/try to do help out in many fields restricting their time from serious Zope work. -aj pgp37nCOck6sF.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jonathan Cyr wrote at 2005-4-6 16:06 -0400: ... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed, and the horse I rode in on. Do not worry too much! Jim proposed to keep ZClasses alive until (at least) Zope 2.10. And he asks whether there is enough interest to keep them longer... If the Zope 2 releases progress in the same speed seen recently, then Zope 2.10 will come in 4 to 6 years. That's a lot of time. Of course, it is planned that future release cycles are much shorter (one release every 6 months) but I do not yet buy that this will indeed happen. Almost all releases were planned much earlier than they happened. And, we can keep ZClasses alive, at least until the next major Persistency shakeup (after Jim made them working again for the current Persistency shakeup) -- even when they are no longer in the core. In fact, I have had ten times more problems with Archetypes (which I use now) than with ZClasses (which I used formerly). It is true (and sad) that there are no unit tests for ZClasses but ZClasses just broke twice in the past across releases and the community quickly found workarounds. These fixes were found much faster than those for the security problems which were introduced from time to time into Zope through security shakeups -- despite the fact that there are unit tests for the security subsystem. Thus, the right approach (in my view) is that all users of ZClasses tell Jim, that ZClasses are used and interesting. ZClasses may nevertheless get deprecated but probably kept longer then Zope 2.10 unless they cause major problems. For new projects, you should investigate the new options. Product development will get much simpler with Zope3 technology (and its schemas and views). Currently, there is no TTW (Through The Web) development in Zope3 land, but that is planned. In about 2 to 4 years, we may have new ZClass like functionality implemented with Zope3 technology. And I am quite confident that the old ZClasses will live til then... And so here's the confession... Hello, I'm Jon... I've used Zope for 2 years, and I can't help others program high-level Python OOP tools/platform resources in a propriety web content management server. I only can support their efforts when the occasional mailing list opportunities present themselves. That's fine. Continue with this support! Do not worry too much about ZClasses. They will stay for a significant time because Jim plans to take the next major hurdle (thank you, Jim!). After that, probably only small changes will be necessary -- as in the past. We, the ZClass users, can manage these minor changes -- as we did in the past. -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
SOS This would mean a disaster for us. We've created a lot products using ZClasses in production environment (internet,intranet,eai and so on) since zope-2.1.4. In short our complete developement in Zope is heavily based on ZClasses. We plan to use ZClasses in the future, too. For us ZClasses are a essential part of zope and they works very well. It is quite impossible for us to migrate all our Products to python-products or somethong else and i guess that this is not wanted by you!? I think that going away from ZClasses will let many other people with legacy-software running in the same problems. regards ralph ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Arenz, Ralph escribió: SOS This would mean a disaster for us. We've created a lot products using ZClasses in production environment (internet,intranet,eai and so on) since zope-2.1.4. In short our complete developement in Zope is heavily based on ZClasses. We plan to use ZClasses in the future, too. For us ZClasses are a essential part of zope and they works very well. It is quite impossible for us to migrate all our Products to python-products or somethong else and i guess that this is not wanted by you!? I think that going away from ZClasses will let many other people with legacy-software running in the same problems. regards ralph ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) Hi Can you explain why you can't migrate from ZClasses to python-products? Perhaps the best solution will be create a machinery to migrate ZClasses Thanks! ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to support an old non-recommended one. :-) Anyway, my main question is: You who are using ZClasses, can't you just stay on Zope2.8 or 2.9, if Zope 2.10 would not contain ZClass support? The main features of 2.8 is support for the component architecture, and for zope 2.9 and 2.10 this will be even more true: there will most likely be very few new features besides this. With 2.9 or 2.10 the idea is that you can use both ZClasses, *and* write products that work under Zope3. I'm not even sure there will be a 2.10, and in any case you won't really have much need of it. I think it's a good idea to deprecate ZClasses if only to get people to start moving over to the Zope3 based development paradigm. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Lennart Regebro said: Anyway, my main question is: You who are using ZClasses, can't you just stay on Zope2.8 or 2.9, if Zope 2.10 would not contain ZClass support? That is possible, but it would be nice to be able to transition out of ZClasses through 2.8 - 2.9 - 2.10 as opposed to there being a drop off cliff. I think the idea of creating a ZCLass based pluging/product for 2.10 sounds like a good one. That was it can be rolled out of the ZOpe core and maintained by those of us who care. Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Lennart Regebro wrote at 2005-4-5 11:48 +0200: On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to support an old non-recommended one. :-) ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book. Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which does not yet feature at all in the Zope book). -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer. Until the documentation has caught up to the new features, it seems a bit ahead of schedule to start dropping support for them. Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Dieter Maurer said: Lennart Regebro wrote at 2005-4-5 11:48 +0200: On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to support an old non-recommended one. :-) ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book. Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which does not yet feature at all in the Zope book). -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
--On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer. We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then they should take over some responsibility in maintaining them in future releases. It can not be that a feature regarded as obsolete (from the majority) and almost unmaintained and untouched since ages holds up further releases. I agree with Jim that they should be officially deprecated - means they could be removed in Zope 2.10. We could leave them longer if they should work in further releases without further work. If there are serious problems in further releases with ZClasses holding up a new release we should kick them. So if you depend on ZClasseslearn how they are implemented and maintain them in the future. But from the prospective of limited resource it is not reasonable to spend much time on ZClasses in the future. -aj pgpe8HOYVqLUR.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to convert a zclass based on catagaware to one based on catalogPATHaware, or merge the two. Or you just deprecate something that is used and don't deprecate some code that is obsolete by year ? :) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Andreas Jung ha scritto: --On Montag, 4. April 2005 9:58 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to convert a zclass based on catagaware to one based on catalogPATHaware, or merge the two. This would be up to the community :-) -aj As a right KeywordIndex? *grin* :P ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
--On Montag, 4. April 2005 10:23 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andreas Jung ha scritto: --On Montag, 4. April 2005 9:58 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to convert a zclass based on catagaware to one based on catalogPATHaware, or merge the two. This would be up to the community :-) -aj As a right KeywordIndex? *grin* :P ?? -aj pgpWoTd4J5aXu.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Chris Withers escribió: Well, you know what I'm gonna say... +1 for their demise. +1 for DTML going too, oops, wait, Andreas said not to bring that up ;-) cheers, Chris Jim Fulton wrote: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially revision control systems like CVS and subversion. - They don't work well with Python development tools, like profilers and debugger. - They aren't being actively maintained. Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them around. For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8. We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Jim Yep! Don't talk about DTML or you will be punished (sorry Andreas I can't resist myself, hehe, obviously I'm joking) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
I agree that ZClasses are not good to use. However, I have a product based on ZClasses that I wrote several years ago (after reading the printed Zope book - doh!), and it's working well for several of my clients. If future versions of Zope were to not support it, that would be a huge problem for me... unless there were some utility that would allow me to export my ZClasses to a regular file-system product. Thanks, AM ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
AM Thomas escribió: I agree that ZClasses are not good to use. However, I have a product based on ZClasses that I wrote several years ago (after reading the printed Zope book - doh!), and it's working well for several of my clients. If future versions of Zope were to not support it, that would be a huge problem for me... unless there were some utility that would allow me to export my ZClasses to a regular file-system product. Thanks, AM ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) Perhaps will be a good choice to make ZClasses as an installable product (I don't know if this is possible or not ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
On Apr 4, 2005 5:14 PM, Garito [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps will be a good choice to make ZClasses as an installable product (I don't know if this is possible or not Sure it is, but the problem is that supporting it in future versions of Zope very well may need changes in Zope itself. Changes that is *far* from trivial. So I think it's mostly a question of Should Zope corp put down the effort to keep ZClasses working, because, most likely nobody else can... -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jim Fulton escribió: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially revision control systems like CVS and subversion. - They don't work well with Python development tools, like profilers and debugger. - They aren't being actively maintained. Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them around. For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8. We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Jim My +1 for ZClasses deprecation And +1 for DTML deprecation Try to keep Zope simple Simple = GOOD Simple = EASY Simple = BUGLESS Simple = QUICK ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Garito wrote: My +1 for ZClasses deprecation And +1 for DTML deprecation Try to keep Zope simple -1 for DTML deprecation. It serves a different purpose that ZPT-- DTML is Logic+HTML ZPT is HTML+Logic. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
--On Sonntag, 3. April 2005 14:57 Uhr +0200 Garito [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And +1 for DTML deprecation Deprecating DTML was never an issue. So stop the discussion about DTML. We're talking about ZClasses. -aj pgp0r7S8eJ6rx.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Andreas Jung wrote at 2005-4-2 08:58 +0200: --On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:52 Uhr -0500 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to support them as legacy into 3/2.10? To avoid that people use ZClasses in the future :-) ZClasses have a set of bugs (I know one) and weaknesses (I know two or three) but all in all they are easier than the alternatives. Thus, they still are a valuable feature... -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jake wrote: My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses I doubt that that is the case. is, why not support them? You listed out the reasons why someone wouldn't want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to support them as legacy into 3/2.10? Are you saying you want them in 2.10 but not necessarily beyond that (e.g. 2.11)? Or that you don't see why we don't support them indefinately? It takes effort to support old features. We have to weigh the benefits against the cost of the feature. For example, Zope 2.8 has been delayed substantially due to the effort to keep them going. If people find them useful, then we can keep them, but we don't want to keep them otherwise. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Another vote for depreciation. I've looked at ZClasses, got confused, and built a product to do the (quite simple) task in less time than I spent scratching my head at ZClasses. Personally I'd make them in to a Product for 2.10 and let anyone who cares make it work with 2.10. -- Phillip Hutchings http://www.sitharus.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially revision control systems like CVS and subversion. - They don't work well with Python development tools, like profilers and debugger. - They aren't being actively maintained. Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them around. For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8. We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
+1 for deprecation. On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Jim Fulton wrote: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially revision control systems like CVS and subversion. - They don't work well with Python development tools, like profilers and debugger. - They aren't being actively maintained. Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them around. For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8. We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Jim ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
And another +1 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Allison Sent: 01 April 2005 15:44 To: Jim Fulton Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? +1 for deprecation. On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Jim Fulton wrote: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially revision control systems like CVS and subversion. - They don't work well with Python development tools, like profilers and debugger. - They aren't being actively maintained. Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them around. For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8. We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Jim ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jim Fulton wrote: (snip) Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? ZClasses ? What are ZClasses ? (Sorry, couldn't resist. +1 for deprecation) -- Bruno Desthuilliers Développeur [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
-l for deprecation ...until we build a replacement anyway... Dennis Allison wrote: +1 for deprecation. On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Jim Fulton wrote: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially revision control systems like CVS and subversion. - They don't work well with Python development tools, like profilers and debugger. - They aren't being actively maintained. Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them around. For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8. We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Jim ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
I vote we take off and nuke them from orbit it is the only way to be sure. (+1 get rid of those dang things) I have tried to help far too many people over the years on #zope that had problems with zclasses. They just seem fragile and should be removed. On Friday 01 April 2005 5:22 am, Jim Fulton wrote: We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Jim ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Allen Schmidt wrote: -l for deprecation ...until we build a replacement anyway... What do you mean by replacement? In Zope 3, I plan to provide persistent modules to support prototying new applications through the web. It will be possible to automatically convert these to file-system-based packages once you are ready to move to production and evolutionary development. I expect this capability to appear in Zope 2 eventually. Would this be a suitable replacement? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across 10 different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not happy to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come. If they are supported in 2.8 - 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok. Again, it is going to take me and others a lot of work to migrate out our data from those products into other vehicles but such is progress. Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Jim Fulton said: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially revision control systems like CVS and subversion. - They don't work well with Python development tools, like profilers and debugger. - They aren't being actively maintained. Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them around. For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8. We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jake wrote: As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across 10 different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not happy to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come. If they are supported in 2.8 - 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok. If we deprecated them now, they would be gone in 2.10 (not to be confused with 3.0) too. Again, it is going to take me and others a lot of work to migrate out our data from those products into other vehicles but such is progress. A decision hasn't been made. People who don't use them feel strongly that they should go. I'm trying to get a sense of how widely they are used. I'm trying to understand if people who use ZClasses are a silent majority, minority, or small minority. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
+1 for deprecation. However, I haven't used them for years. I suspect you will hear otherwise from some people with currently deployed solutions based on ZClasses... (cue Dieter) -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 7:22 Uhr -0500 Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? +2 to get rid of them -aj pgperM2UjWeT8.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
My vote is to keep them around for 2.8 and 2.9 but say goodbye after that. Again.. it won't be easy for us, but who said progress ever was. Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Jim Fulton said: Jake wrote: As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across 10 different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not happy to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come. If they are supported in 2.8 - 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok. If we deprecated them now, they would be gone in 2.10 (not to be confused with 3.0) too. Again, it is going to take me and others a lot of work to migrate out our data from those products into other vehicles but such is progress. A decision hasn't been made. People who don't use them feel strongly that they should go. I'm trying to get a sense of how widely they are used. I'm trying to understand if people who use ZClasses are a silent majority, minority, or small minority. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
+1 on deprecation. (As for replacements, persistent schemas in Zope3 will enable the thing that ZClasses should have been: Combining a set of base classes with functionality with a TTW editable schema. CPSschemas is halfway there: You can make your own content classes already, but you can't change the baseclass. But that's a discussion for anotehr day). -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Jim Fulton wrote at 2005-4-1 07:22 -0500: ... We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? We use ZClasses for several applications which we would (if possible) not like to rewrite. -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
To me it depends on how much time ZClasses are going to last. If ZClasses will stay for the next two years, then it's fine for us, as we probably will persuade ourselves to rewrite all of our stuff in ZopeX3, and not in Zope2.X Jim, bear in mind that people that will agree to its deprecation is people that in one way or another aren't using them or stopped using them, for whatever valid reason they had ever found. Ask to the people who actually doesn't have any problem with them. Take this as an example: http://www.zope.org/Members/sums/News_Item.2004-10-20.2121 As of us, we are happily using them for a large project on dynamic packaging for travel operators and travel agencies, a complex application featuring dynamic pricing and the content management of rich-media personalized itineraries. I chose ZClasses as it offered us a mean of working interactively with our partner, without the constraints of having to have a detailed road map to start with.( Dynamic pakaging in the travel industry is still a moving target ). ZClasses offered us a way to put test features up and running quickly, just to find out they would make any sense or not. Whether there already is a tool like that in ZopeLand, I would agree to its deprecation, but actually there's nothing like it. Certainly ZClasses is not what it promised to be, but what it does do, it does it brilliantly, IMNSHO. Ausum - Original Message - From: Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: zope@zope.org Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? My vote is to keep them around for 2.8 and 2.9 but say goodbye after that. Again.. it won't be easy for us, but who said progress ever was. Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Jim Fulton said: Jake wrote: As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across 10 different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not happy to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come. If they are supported in 2.8 - 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok. If we deprecated them now, they would be gone in 2.10 (not to be confused with 3.0) too. Again, it is going to take me and others a lot of work to migrate out our data from those products into other vehicles but such is progress. A decision hasn't been made. People who don't use them feel strongly that they should go. I'm trying to get a sense of how widely they are used. I'm trying to understand if people who use ZClasses are a silent majority, minority, or small minority. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
Big mistake, IMHO, You have no replacement for intermediate developers... the only decent documentation, being the various books, have ZClasses throughout. Explain their absence to the newbies grokking for Zope enlightenment. Not everyone needs/wants development tools, some like the TTW management. The ZClass code seems to work flawlessly for me, never a problem. Who didn't cut their teeth with ZClasses? ZClasses are the reason I realized Zope was so powerful... Gee, how would I use an Object database???, the ZClass showed me... and later I added Zope Products to the mix with my ZClasses and created a viable business based on Zope. How are newbies going to make the leap to the newer Zope offerings without a ZClass to start with. This list is full of experts... and I appreciate the resource... but often the intermediate Zope programmer is plowed over... whether it's the topic of ZClasses or DTML, or any other way Zope used to do things. I have to choose each Zope technology carefully for the time investment. ZClasses were well worth my time measured with the whole picture... web design, flash programming, HTML, RSS, _javascript_, css, interactive marketing, systems administration, etc. I can't say that for some Zope technology offerings. I took the better part of 1 1/2 years developing a business based on Zope, heavily relying on ZClasses (and DTML), based on the choices in Zope presented at the time. I bought every book available, which pointed to ZClasses and DTML being THE way to go... I bought into the TTW strategy of managing web apps, and I like it... ZClasses fit the bill for me... I don't need the CMF, APE, ZPT, Plone projects... I need a simple way to deliver rich objects in an object database... ZClasses My business venture, based on Zope is just now starting to bear fruit... it would be a shame if the frantic pace of Zope's software lifecycle couldn't be patient enough for the real world's business lifecycles. I started developing on 2.6.1 and have been able to stay fairly current to 2.7.3, and stayed fairly pure, only products added were formulator and varimage... figured staying compatible with Zope's core features would be to my benefit... ZClasses are a core feature of Zope Unlike the depreciated Versions feature, which was more of a problem that benefit ZClasses do work, DTML does, as long as you don't try to make them solve complex problems. Keep ZClasses until there's a replacement for "Simple Rich Objects in the Object Database" for the intermediate Zope programmers. This hits me very close to home, I apologize for any harsh terms and appreciate Zope, the Zope team, and the work of all of the folks on this list, making it so great. I hope this helps in the discussion and weighing of priorities. I appreciate you asking, thanks for your time, Jonathan Cyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] WeddingWeblog.com Jim Fulton wrote: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially revision control systems like CVS and subversion. - They don't work well with Python development tools, like profilers and debugger. - They aren't being actively maintained. Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them around. For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8. We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? Jim ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses is, why not support them? You listed out the reasons why someone wouldn't want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to support them as legacy into 3/2.10? Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Dieter Maurer said: Jim Fulton wrote at 2005-4-1 07:22 -0500: ... We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? We use ZClasses for several applications which we would (if possible) not like to rewrite. -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:21 Uhr -0500 Ausum Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whether there already is a tool like that in ZopeLand, I would agree to its deprecation, but actually there's nothing like it. Certainly ZClasses is not what it promised to be, but what it does do, it does it brilliantly, IMNSHO. If you depend on ZClasses you might take over some responsibility or resources in maintaining ZClasses *wink* :-) -aj pgpOk3HguSqly.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:52 Uhr -0500 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to support them as legacy into 3/2.10? To avoid that people use ZClasses in the future :-) -aj pgpNlVUdoEQdZ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 23:10 Uhr -0800 David H [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would recommend ZClass people should form a group. And have good people keep the thing compatible with each Zope release. David I doubt that anyone will touch ZClasses - except Dieter and Jim :-) It's good to see them go..and there are enough solutions to replace ZClasses with much cleaner and supported solutions (e.g. with Zope+Five+Z3 schemas or CMF + AT or CMF + CPSSchemas). -aj pgpbtYIy0fQbo.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
