Re: [Zope] How do people work with html-designers?
Chris Withers schrieb: Martijn Pieters wrote: That, for ZPT, was sadly a myth. Not a myth at all. Perhaps underutilised and not as robust as first hoped, but not a myth. At Pareto the designer and templater were quite comfortable with keeping TAL intact while using graphical tools. My experience has been that as soon as you put any of the common visual html tools into the mix, they happily strip out tal: and metal: attributes :-( Which ones do that? Certainly not the infamous DW... Regards Tino ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] How do people work with html-designers?
We use the design first approach, which has worked extremely well with us. We have an extensive UI development process for the web, which is itself iterative, includes user feedback and testing and so on. Experience has show us on many occasions that developpers/programmers should NOT design ANYTHING (graphical)! ;) The only thing the designer needs to understand is the concepts (like iterations within templates and so on). He need not know any code, just what is possible with automation. When in doubt consult with the developper(s). Otherwise, the user is (mostly) king, and giving them the UI's they want, can use, and makes them achieve their goals, is the primary concern. Google "User Centered Design"! J.F. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Withers Sent: March 16, 2007 04:51 To: Gaute Amundsen Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] How do people work with html-designers? Gaute Amundsen wrote: > How do people set up the zope development process and servers to work > well with web-designers who use wysiwyg editors like dreamweaver? I use Twiddler for templating in these kind of situations: http://www.simplistix.co.uk/software/python/twiddler ...as it provides a complete seperation of what the designers work with and what the programmers work with. Provided what the designers save is XHTML and they preserve the ids that the programmer is expecting, there's no problem at all :-) > After all one of the advertised advantages of ZPT, is that you can > send the template back to the designer without him destroying the TAL > code. (not right away at least) That, for ZPT, was sadly a myth. > In practice I find that once the original html has been split into > "main tempate" and "content template" parts, or the like, it gets > rather impractical to involve the designer again, and we end up having > the coders do way more css work than they should. Ultimately, that depends on how you do the split. It's certainly possible to have the template and content template be realy html documents that designers can work with... > I know you can leave the "dummy content" in place, but often the > stylesheets, and scripts live in a different folder, and gets aquired > by zope for publishing. Again, if you're careful, you can let your designers work on these files consistently... > If I could get this whole process to be more of a two way thing, I > could do do stuff, like start a site with a prototype, and have the > designer beautyfy that, and work iteratively, instead of allways > starting with the graphic design... Yup, this is how I enjoy working ;-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] How do people work with html-designers?
Martijn Pieters wrote: That, for ZPT, was sadly a myth. Not a myth at all. Perhaps underutilised and not as robust as first hoped, but not a myth. At Pareto the designer and templater were quite comfortable with keeping TAL intact while using graphical tools. My experience has been that as soon as you put any of the common visual html tools into the mix, they happily strip out tal: and metal: attributes :-( Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] How do people work with html-designers?
On 3/16/07, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > After all one of the advertised advantages of ZPT, is that you can send the > template back to the designer without him destroying the TAL code. (not right > away at least) That, for ZPT, was sadly a myth. Not a myth at all. Perhaps underutilised and not as robust as first hoped, but not a myth. At Pareto the designer and templater were quite comfortable with keeping TAL intact while using graphical tools. -- Martijn Pieters ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] How do people work with html-designers?
Gaute Amundsen wrote: How do people set up the zope development process and servers to work well with web-designers who use wysiwyg editors like dreamweaver? I use Twiddler for templating in these kind of situations: http://www.simplistix.co.uk/software/python/twiddler ...as it provides a complete seperation of what the designers work with and what the programmers work with. Provided what the designers save is XHTML and they preserve the ids that the programmer is expecting, there's no problem at all :-) After all one of the advertised advantages of ZPT, is that you can send the template back to the designer without him destroying the TAL code. (not right away at least) That, for ZPT, was sadly a myth. In practice I find that once the original html has been split into "main tempate" and "content template" parts, or the like, it gets rather impractical to involve the designer again, and we end up having the coders do way more css work than they should. Ultimately, that depends on how you do the split. It's certainly possible to have the template and content template be realy html documents that designers can work with... I know you can leave the "dummy content" in place, but often the stylesheets, and scripts live in a different folder, and gets aquired by zope for publishing. Again, if you're careful, you can let your designers work on these files consistently... If I could get this whole process to be more of a two way thing, I could do do stuff, like start a site with a prototype, and have the designer beautyfy that, and work iteratively, instead of allways starting with the graphic design... Yup, this is how I enjoy working ;-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] How do people work with html-designers?
On Thursday 15 March 2007 10:23, Jaroslav Lukesh wrote: > do google: zpt OR tal lukesh > > I was wrote about this few months ago in this mailinglist. > > Regards JL. Did you try googling that yourself before responding? Not much there.. I searched the mailinglist for various terms as well before posting this, but could find nothing very relevant. Tried "lukesh" on the list now.. You can't be thinking of the "Urgent Help Required" thread. I have not read every last post, but that does no look like a very constructive... A slightly more specific pointer would be appreciated. Gaute ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] How do people work with html-designers?
do google: zpt OR tal lukesh I was wrote about this few months ago in this mailinglist. Regards JL. - Original Message - From: "Gaute Amundsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have been meaning to ask this for a while.. How do people set up the zope development process and servers to work well with web-designers who use wysiwyg editors like dreamweaver? I mean, we all probably use webdav, and "external editor", but after that? After all one of the advertised advantages of ZPT, is that you can send the template back to the designer without him destroying the TAL code. (not right away at least) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] How do people work with html-designers?
I have been meaning to ask this for a while.. How do people set up the zope development process and servers to work well with web-designers who use wysiwyg editors like dreamweaver? I mean, we all probably use webdav, and "external editor", but after that? After all one of the advertised advantages of ZPT, is that you can send the template back to the designer without him destroying the TAL code. (not right away at least) In practice I find that once the original html has been split into "main tempate" and "content template" parts, or the like, it gets rather impractical to involve the designer again, and we end up having the coders do way more css work than they should. I know you can leave the "dummy content" in place, but often the stylesheets, and scripts live in a different folder, and gets aquired by zope for publishing. If I could get this whole process to be more of a two way thing, I could do do stuff, like start a site with a prototype, and have the designer beautyfy that, and work iteratively, instead of allways starting with the graphic design... Perhaps it would be possible to construct a special webdav "editor view" that could "symlink" certain files into any directory, so that the wysiwyg editor finds them, or even "assemble" the templates to a page, and send the edits to the right template, or something like that. Perhaps such a product allready exists? :) Or maybe the fix is in the editor, and you can tell dreamweaver to look for stuff it can't find in the dav-filesystem, at a certain URL instead.. Anyway, I would be glad to hear how other zope-shops, deal with these kinds of issues. Regards Gaute Amundsen ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
