Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-07 Thread J. Atwood

I have a lot of time and exposure to Tomcat so it made it easy for me 
to run those tests (BTW, now in production, on the same machine Zope 
is about 3 times faster!) but none really with  PHP or Mason. In the 
end of the day, though, as most of the people have been saying on 
this list, you really shouldn't be focusing on comparing the raw 
speed of two totally different applications with different feature 
sets. I would challenge you to find something as powerful /useful / 
extendable as Zope written in any language and if you did, we could 
run those benchmarks.

What I *would* suggest focusing on is can Zope provide you with the 
right amount of features and functionality and can you scale it? So, 
and god willing, your site that you build in Zope goes from 
0-1,000,000 hits a day, can you handle it? The answer is yes (a mix 
of Pentium, 256 MB Ram and fast drives with Linux will do that). What 
about if you double that or go to 10,000,000 a day? Well, that is 
where ZEO and load balancing will come in. I can personally tell you 
that you could set up four Pentium 300 MHz Zope installations running 
a ZEO instance behind a load balance (not nearly are complicated as 
it seems) and you would be able to handle most of your Yahoo dreams.

So, keep researching, asking the right questions and looking for 
those answers but don't get caught up in the benchmarking game too 
long, it is only one very small piece to the equation.

Good luck.

J

At 10:19 PM -0400 7/6/2000, Firestar wrote:
Thanks for your info. The benchmarks look impressive! However, what would be
interesting is how Zope performs compared to Apache+PHP or mod_perl/mason
and other open-source solutions...
If you happen (and have the time) to compare them, do tell me:)

regards,
firestar

--Original Message--
From: "J. Atwood" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Firestar [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: July 6, 2000 2:55:02 PM GMT
Subject: Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?


No. Not when compared to other applications that do the same *type* of thing
(which there are very very few).

Check out an interesting set of benchmarks I ran against Zope and Tomcat
connecting to a PostgreSQL database.

http://www.zope.org/Members/BwanaZulia/benchmarks.html

J


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RE: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-07 Thread Coleman, Bryan

Was that Zap or Zope/Medusa. I have run some benchmarks that favored apache
serving the same "static" content that Zope/Medusa was serving.

- Bryan Patrick Coleman
  Questcon Technologies
  (336)273-2428
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: Andy McKay [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 10:15 AM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
 
   -maybe we could discuss network services/hoster_performance?
 
 This is more of a problem for most people. One evening whilst bored we
 calculated that Zope could happily serve enough people to fill up our
 pipe... so the bottle neck is our connection.
 
 Mind you we'd had a beer or two so calculations could be flawed.
 
 
  michael
  drawingincode
 
 
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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-07 Thread J. Atwood

 Well, i don't think my site will ever get that much hits:) Anyway, i check
 out Digicool website on this ZEO thing, and it seems that they charge abt
 $25,000 for this product alone(+consulting)? Not to belittle their effort,
 but that's a huge amount of money, considering that everything nowadays is
 "open-source":). Or did i interpret it wrongly? TIA.

ZEO is open source now. It used to be (a few months ago) that $25,000 but
now is completely open source (search for ZEO on Zope.org). It is in
Alpha/Beta and will be out soon. It probably one of the biggest things that
gets the littlest attention. It will bring Zope to a whole new level of
scaling the only 1,000,000 solutions offer now.

J


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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Firestar

Hi, thanks for your comment.

Absolutely.  Apache is many times faster than Zope. (Don't know much about 
AOLserver, but anything with AOL. :)

However, Apache can't do squat compared with Zope when it comes to dynamic content.

Not true. I have been programming using PHP and PERL, and together with Apache(DSO) 
they are quite fast. They do offer sessions tracking, authentication, database API + 
other features. It's just that due to the increasing 'hype':) on Zope and the vast 
array of features that it seems to offer, i'm sort of "attracted" by it:)

Of course if i have time, i will play ard with it and see how good it is. Problem is 
that time is not really on my side and i need to decide on my next development tool 
fast(i have yet to try out other stuff e.g. ASP, JSP, Servlet..) I heard that the 
learning curve for Zope is quite steep, plus the documentation is not(?) that 
comprehensive, compared to e.g. PHP. What are your comments though? i may be wrong 
here...

regards,
firestar

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Bill Anderson

Firestar wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 I'm considering using Zope as the development tool for my next web project. However, 
I read from a recent benchmark test (from Qube, i think) that Zope(running thru 
Zserver?) is much SLOWER than Apache and AOLserver.  Is that true? To all Zope users 
and 'guru's, what is yr experience using Zope?


Define slow. Slow compared to what? Doing what?

That's a ig difference between Zope and Apache and AOLServer. they don't
_do_ the stuff that Zope does.

It's like comparing a Corvette and a v10 Dodge RAM.
id the Dodge 'slow'? When compared to the vette. But does the vette do
any heavy hauling? Can it tow a boat? A Trailer? Will it haul the kids
and the dog up througt the hills?

Apache does little other than serve stati files, and take output from
cgis (or modules, same _basic_ concept). Zope actually does the work.
For some things Zope is appropriate, and where it is, it outperforms
(IME) Apache. For others, like serving static content, it is slowER than
apache.

of course, slow is all relative. I have a couple zope Servers cranking
out ~80 requests per second. Is that slow? ;)

That's ~6 Million requests/day. Cut it in half, for more complicated
tasks, and still moving along at a good clip. What's better, try Apache
doing the same things.

Does your next project invlove more than just static files sitting on a
hard drive? Chances are, you'll be better off with Zope

Speed and Bencmarks are irrelevant when it comes to real-world
performance. :)


-- 
"Linux: the operating system with a CLUE...
Command Line User Environment".

seen in a posting on comp.software.testing

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Rik Hoekstra

Well, i do appreciate the 'extra' features that Zope provides, but speed is
still a matter of concern here. Imagine showing my boss "what my website can
do" and all those advanced features, but it crawls like a snail...

Anyway, thanks for your reply. I will certainly pick up 'Zope':), but just
wondering whether it will replace what i have been using, i.e. PHP.



If you have many accesses to Zope there is also the ZEO (Zope Enterprise
Option, currently in alpha) that let's you turn your Zope server into a
distributed one, scaling to many reads. This makes it suitable for _high_
traffic sites. See http://www.zope.org/Products/ZEO/

my 2 (euro)cents

Rik


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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Firestar

Hi Bill, thanks for your reply.

--Original Message--
From: Bill Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Firestar [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: July 6, 2000 8:19:39 AM GMT
Subject: Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

Define slow. Slow compared to what? Doing what?

That's a ig difference between Zope and Apache and AOLServer. 
they don't _do_ the stuff that Zope does.

Apache does little other than serve stati files, and take 
output from cgis (or modules, same _basic_ concept). Zope 
actually does the work. For some things Zope is appropriate, 
and where it is, it outperforms (IME) Apache. For others, like 
serving static content, it is slowER than apache.

of course, slow is all relative. I have a couple zope Servers 
cranking out ~80 requests per second. Is that slow? ;)

That's ~6 Million requests/day. Cut it in half, for more 
complicated tasks, and still moving along at a good clip. 
What's better, try Apache doing the same things.

Does your next project invlove more than just static files 
sitting on a
hard drive? Chances are, you'll be better off with Zope

I have been programming with PHP and PERL, and they are quite fast, even when serving 
dynamic pages. Of course, they do not provide all the features of Zope, but they are 
able to handle things like sessions, authentication, database API...which is quite 
adequate for most small-to-medium websites. (although sometimes it's quite frustrating 
putting the modules together:)

Speed and Bencmarks are irrelevant when it comes to real-world
performance. :)

benchmark may not be accurate, but i still think that speed is still impt. Check out 
Jakob Nielsen's website and you would know that speed of serving webpages is one of 
the main usability factors. 

But then again, if Zope really is THAT good, i may be inclined to switch over and use 
it as my main development tool in future; but the speed factor is still worrying me - 
i wouldn't want my website to 'crawl' when i'm presenting it to my boss or clients:)

regards,
thee

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[Zope] RE: Re[2]: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Firestar

Hi john, u can check out the benchmark here:

http://weblogs.userland.com/qube/

regards,
firestar

--Original Message--
From: John Morton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Curtis Maloney [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: July 6, 2000 4:12:33 AM GMT
Subject: Re[2]: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
 
AOLServer was called something else before AOL bought it. It's basically
an httpd with tcl sitting on top of a nice API to such an extent that
pretty much anything you'd want to do with a web server can be scripted in
tcl. The neat thing is that it's been doing what mod_[your favourite
language]+apache does since 1994. Philip Greenspun of 'PA's Guide to Web
Publishing' fame swear's by it. 

The question is - what were they doing in the benchmark? Zope, out of the
box, is doing things like transactioning, authenication/authorization,
acquisition for each hit, while AOLserver will only have that level of
functionality if it's coupled with the ArsDigita Community System, and a
suitable RDBMS (Oracle or maybe postgresql).

We're almost certainly talking about an apples and oranges comparison, but
I'd be interested in a look if someone has the URL.

John

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Phill Hugo

Firestar wrote:

 I have been programming with PHP and PERL, and they are quite fast, even when 
serving dynamic pages. Of course, they do not provide all the features of Zope, but 
they are able to handle things like sessions, authentication, database API...which is 
quite adequate for most small-to-medium websites. (although sometimes it's quite 
frustrating putting the modules together:)

Yes, Zope is slower than Apache but so is a bus compared to a porsche.
However, you can do things with buses that would take forever with a
sports car, and some that are impossible (moving furniture ;)

If you want the best of both worlds, map out the images and large static
files from apache's config to go to itself and forward the rest over
PCGI to Zope (read up on mod_rewrite). This way, the dynamic stuff is
served by zope and the static stuff is handled by apache, both doing
what they are good at. You can add LocalFS to Zope to allow
administration of the static files too. This is what PHP does, that is
just a module which handles php files, everything else is handled by
Apache. PHP itself isn't that fast (it doesn't even cache compiled
code).

A decent 500Mhz PIII will knock out about 80 pages per second under Zope
(~40 for complex things) but given that many sites where speed is
important are very graphical, the ratio of a zope hit to an apache one
is reasonable  - on the site I'm working on this is about 1:10 and
current traffic (not yet under Zope) is 18Million hits per month. 

If ever you run out of power (or reach the halfway point) you can start
thinking of adding some caching or migrate to ZEO. In fact, if that
happens, you'd be stupid not to have some sort of cluster - you'd have a
very busy site!

Phill

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Martijn Pieters

On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 04:27:22AM -0400, Firestar wrote:
 Well, i do appreciate the 'extra' features that Zope provides, but speed is
 still a matter of concern here. Imagine showing my boss "what my website can
 do" and all those advanced features, but it crawls like a snail... 

"Slow" does not mean "crawl". It is slowER, it is a relative term. Is
www.zope.org slow? Is www.CodeCatalog.com slow? Is www.enterlinux.com slow?
For the featureset, PHP and Perl are either as fast or slower. Take Code
Catalog; they built their prototype site both in PHP and Zope, and Zope was
the fastest.

Zope is more than fast enough for 90% of the sites out there. In many cases,
you can optimize the application if necessary, you can use caching or
cache-control headers where applicable, you can use ZEO to distribute the load
over multiple Zope processes, on multiple machines if need be. You could run
static content from a dedicated machine, like Slashdot does. But this is not
always necessary. Zope.org runs without ZEO on a sub $1000 box. Commodity
hardware. 85.000 hits per day and on the increase.

Again, slow is a relative term. How can you be sure that Zope is going to be
the bottleneck in your app? It could well be that your internet connection is
the weak link, or that you just don't get the userbase to tax Zope to the
limits. Will the additional development time spent on another platforms be
worth the little bit of extra performance, if you don't even need it? 

Check out Zope.org for more examples and case studies. Search the mail
archives for comparisons. Forget about the speed issue.

-- 
Martijn Pieters
| Software Engineermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Digital Creations  http://www.digicool.com/
| Creators of Zope   http://www.zope.org/
| ZopeStudio: http://www.zope.org/Products/ZopeStudio
-

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread michael bolger

maybe if we all share "optimum" hardware configuration to improve
performance+
-where is your server "hosted" as this is vital(obviously:)) to
speed/performance
 -maybe we could discuss network services/hoster_performance?

michael
drawingincode


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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread J. Atwood

No. Not when compared to other applications that do the same *type* of thing
(which there are very very few).

Check out an interesting set of benchmarks I ran against Zope and Tomcat
connecting to a PostgreSQL database.

http://www.zope.org/Members/BwanaZulia/benchmarks.html

J



 From: Firestar [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:13:32 -0400 (EDT)
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
 
 Hi,
 
 I'm considering using Zope as the development tool for my next web project.
 However, I read from a recent benchmark test (from Qube, i think) that
 Zope(running thru Zserver?) is much SLOWER than Apache and AOLserver.  Is that
 true? To all Zope users and 'guru's, what is yr experience using Zope?
 


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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Andy McKay

  -maybe we could discuss network services/hoster_performance?

This is more of a problem for most people. One evening whilst bored we
calculated that Zope could happily serve enough people to fill up our
pipe... so the bottle neck is our connection.

Mind you we'd had a beer or two so calculations could be flawed.


 michael
 drawingincode


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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Bill Anderson

Firestar wrote:
 
 Hi Bill, thanks for your reply.
 

[...]

 That's ~6 Million requests/day. Cut it in half, for more
 complicated tasks, and still moving along at a good clip.
 What's better, try Apache doing the same things.
 
 Does your next project invlove more than just static files
 sitting on a
 hard drive? Chances are, you'll be better off with Zope
 
 I have been programming with PHP and PERL, and they are quite fast,

PHP != Apache
Perl != Apache

These are add-ons.
If you look at the benchmarks you referenced, those were _static_ files
being tested.

 even when serving dynamic pages. Of course, they do not provide all the
features of Zope, but they are able to handle things like sessions,
authentication, database API...which is quite adequate for most
small-to-medium websites. (although sometimes it's quite frustrating
putting the modules together:)
 
 Speed and Bencmarks are irrelevant when it comes to real-world
 performance. :)
 
 benchmark may not be accurate, but i still think that speed is still impt. Check out 
Jakob Nielsen's website and you would know that speed of serving webpages is one of 
the main usability factors.

Believe me, I know all about _performance_ of websites. :)

 
 But then again, if Zope really is THAT good, i may be inclined to switch over and 
use it as my main development tool in future; but the speed factor is still worrying 
me - i wouldn't want my website to 'crawl' when i'm presenting it to my boss or 
clients:)

Have you checked out some real-world sites that run zope? Is being able
to do 6+million requests/day on commodity hardware 'crawling'?


Take it easy
Bill 

-- 
"Linux: the operating system with a CLUE...
Command Line User Environment".

seen in a posting on comp.software.testing

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Steve Alexander


Firestar wrote:
 Check out Jakob Nielsen's website and you would know that speed of serving
 webpages is one of the main usability factors.

The bottleneck is not generally the speed of serving webpages, but
rather, the speed of the client downloading the data from webpages, as
the data has to go through N regions of the Internet between the server
and client.

Also, users tend to look at more than one webpage at a time, and so
their incoming bandwidth per connection is reduced even further.

The answer to this issue is to avoid large graphics and large pages,
allow client-side caching, move the useful content of a site "forwards"
towards its entrance, avoid banner adverts...

--
Steve Alexander
Software Engineer
Cat-Box limited
http://www.cat-box.net

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Ben Leslie

   -maybe we could discuss network services/hoster_performance?
 
 This is more of a problem for most people. One evening whilst bored we
 calculated that Zope could happily serve enough people to fill up our
 pipe... so the bottle neck is our connection.
 
 Mind you we'd had a beer or two so calculations could be flawed.

That sounds about right (with no idea what size pipe you have ;). I also 
was worried about the speed of Zope however after doing the calculations, 
I figured our current Zope server can fill the pipe we have twice so it 
is definately a bandwidth problem.

(And I was sober when doing the calculations ;)

Benno

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Curtis Maloney

On Thu, 06 Jul 2000, Firestar wrote:
 Hi, thanks for your comment.

 Absolutely.  Apache is many times faster than Zope. (Don't know much
  about AOLserver, but anything with AOL. :)
 
 However, Apache can't do squat compared with Zope when it comes to
  dynamic content.

 Not true. I have been programming using PHP and PERL, and together with
 Apache(DSO) they are quite fast. They do offer sessions tracking,
 authentication, database API + other features. It's just that due to the
 increasing 'hype':) on Zope and the vast array of features that it seems to
 offer, i'm sort of "attracted" by it:)

ahem  As I said, compared with Apache, for static content, it is slow.  
However, just like with CGI, PHP, and various other technologies, ZOPE can 
work through Apache.

As I've had to tell many of my friends, once I became a ZOPE convert, Zope 
does not allow you to do anything you can't already do, but it makes those 
things SO much easier. (o8

 Of course if i have time, i will play ard with it and see how good it is.
 Problem is that time is not really on my side and i need to decide on my
 next development tool fast(i have yet to try out other stuff e.g. ASP, JSP,
 Servlet..) I heard that the learning curve for Zope is quite steep, plus
 the documentation is not(?) that comprehensive, compared to e.g. PHP. What
 are your comments though? i may be wrong here...

Well, I find that Zope allows a MUCH quicker development cycle, along with 
various other advantages, such as remote edit of pages from any browser on 
the net.

Yes, the documentation is lacking.  However, IMHO, a competent programmer 
(especially one with a decent grasp of OO) will pick it up quickly with just 
a couple of reference documents.  (The Zope Quick Reference comes to mind :)

A friend of mine was a hardcore PHP nut, before I introduced him to Zope, and 
was amazed at how simple it made work.  I think the thing that slowed his 
learning of zope the most was often expecting solutions to problems to be 
complex.


 regards,
 firestar

By all means, try it out.  And when you're done, tell us what you think.  
What you like, where you think other technologies win out, and why.  Zope is 
developing quickly, and the features are easy to add because of the open 
nature of the project, and the whole product system.

Have a better one,
Curtis Maloney

dtml-var standard_work_disclaimer

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Marco Mariani

On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 04:13:31AM -0400, Firestar wrote:

 Of course if i have time, i will play ard with it and see how good it is.
 Problem is that time is not really on my side and i need to decide on my
 next development tool fast(i have yet to try out other stuff e.g. ASP,
 JSP, Servlet..) I heard that the learning curve for Zope is quite steep,
 plus the documentation is not(?) that comprehensive, compared to e.g.
 PHP. What are your comments though? i may be wrong here...

Of course, the PHP book I have is really nice, phplib is a godsend too,
but I've tried it and I'm here now.

If you take the time to go beyond the "i will do it with external method
in python because that's all I know" stage, you will find at home sooner
or later depending on wether:

 - you already know python (I did)
 - you understand the difference between dtml-var pippo and dtml-var "pippo"
 - you understand how to wisely use REQUEST and RESPONSE
 - you don't need complex new products or zclasses
 - you post any doubt here (nice place isn't it?)
 - you give a deep read at the ZSQL documentation
 - you can apply full-time (I couldn't)

given that, most of the howtos and tips are redundant :-)

Of course I'm a newbie, but I'm a confident newbie.
 



-- 
"This company has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down.
 If the problem persists, contact your vendor or appeal to a higher court."
 - Signal11 on slashdot

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Marco Mariani

On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 04:27:22AM -0400, Firestar wrote:


 Well, i do appreciate the 'extra' features that Zope provides,
 but speed is still a matter of concern here. Imagine showing
 my boss "what my website can do" and all those advanced features,
 but it crawls like a snail... 

What are the basic operations your site should go through?
Do you own the hardware?

For instance, if you need a complex task that should be faster, just
write a python extension in C that works on a local filesystem, a
little wrapper and call it from dtml. Like I do with image editing.
You could do with PHP too, but the environment is harsher.


-- 
"This company has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down.
 If the problem persists, contact your vendor or appeal to a higher court."
 - Signal11 on slashdot

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Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?

2000-07-06 Thread Luke Tymowski

Hello,

I'm considering using Zope as the development tool for my next web 
project. However, I read from a recent benchmark test (from Qube, i think) 
that Zope(running thru Zserver?) is much SLOWER than Apache and 
AOLserver.  Is that true? To all Zope users and 'guru's, what is yr 
experience using Zope?

I run the QubeQuorner weblog where those numbers came from.

Zope isn't slow. It's slower than Apache serving static pages. But Zope is 
dynamic. I haven't yet had time to do proper dynamic comparisons between 
the various servers.

I run a few Zope sites. And I'm adding more Zope sites. I wouldn't do that 
if I thought it was too slow.

There is a lot involved in making a site faster or slower. Adding a few 
graphics to your web page is going to make it slower than an all-text page. 
An all-text page vs a mixed text and graphics page can be almost twice as 
fast. Your connection to the site is going to affect "apparent" 
performance. For example, while I have a cable modem at home, and my Zope 
server sits on a fast T1 (there are slow T1s and fast ones), the connection 
in the evenings is too slow for me use my server. That's @Home's fault, not 
Zope's. And our T1 will fill up well before Zope runs out of steam on my box.

Technocrat.net is a Zope site. They were Slashdotted and survived without 
any apparent problems. And they were running Zope on a Pentium 120! I 
believe they upgraded to a PII-450 after that episode, just to be safe.

I have a list of Pystone benchmarks on my QQ site too:
http://weblogs.userland.com/qube/stories/storyReader$289

A PIII-850 gives tremendous Python performance, which should translate to 
impressive Zope numbers too. Zope.org, however, doesn't run on nearly the 
fastest hardware available, and it rarely seems slow to me.

Luke


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