Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Wed, May 31, 2000 at 10:45:31PM +1200, Rodger Donaldson wrote: the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on sight That's an overstatement. But if this list is representitive of the python community - well, I don't need more idiots in my life. Oooo, now you're calling everyone an idiot. May I ask if you do this stuff for a living, or for fun? I do this for fun, and I intend to try Enhydra (Java), Mason (Perl), ACS (Tcl) and assorted other stuff. I don't let other people who use those stuff put me off. If I am doing this for a living, the type of people on the users' mailing list is just one (minor) factor in selecting the technology. gratuitious insult Your response is typical of one from the Perl community. No wonder people on this list are up in arms over the idea of integrating Perl and Zope. They worry more people like you will turn up! /gratuitious insult My $0.02. Cheers. -- Ng Pheng Siong [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://www.post1.com/home/ngps ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:39:56AM +1000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: +[ Chris McDonough ]- | This is pretty silly. I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago. I'll go with that. In fact, the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on sight has me convinced not to bother with Zope any more; I can work with a variety of *tools* like Mason and ACS, rather than buy into *religions*, as Zope appears to be. Shame. I'm mostly a perl programmer, but Zope was convincing me I needed to spend some time on python. But if this list is representitive of the python community - well, I don't need more idiots in my life. -- Rodger Donaldson[EMAIL PROTECTED] "That... feels... wonderful... Bones..." "It's head, Jim." ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Rodger Donaldson wrote: I'll go with that. In fact, the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on sight has me convinced not to bother with Zope any more; I can work with a variety of *tools* like Mason and ACS, rather than buy into *religions*, as Zope appears to be. Heh - some people are stopping to use Zope 'cause of Perl Methods, and now people are stopping to use Zope because of all the other people who hate the idea of Zope supporing Perl. Now it's time for the third round of people, who are going to drop Zope because obviously everyone is stopping to use Zope, so what's the point of using it? Niven's 16th Law: "There is no cause so right that one cannot find a fool following it." While we're at it, the 14th: "There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently. (The gene-tampered turkey you're talking to isn't necessarily one of them.)" -- Itamar S.T. [EMAIL PROTECTED] "It don't get thingier than that!" ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Frankly, I don't know what all the fuss is about. While I would personally choose Python over Perl when scripting, having additional choices is never a bad thing. Here are 3 reasons why Perl methods should be added: Increased userbase for ZOPE. Reusability of working Perl code. The ability to use Perl should I decide it can do the job better. If you feel that you need to stop using ZOPE because they added functionality, then see ya later. In addition, if you decide not to start using a great product like ZOPE because you feel you are being picked on, well then sorry, but you will be missing out. Fighting over this is silly and it wastes the time of those who would like to find meaningful answers to posed questions. JMHO, Jeff Peterson Software Engineer The Bridge/Befera Interactive Cablenet -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rodger Donaldson Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 5:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 01:39:56AM +1000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: +[ Chris McDonough ]- | This is pretty silly. I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago. I'll go with that. In fact, the sheer, stupid *hatred* directed by a big chunk of the list at anyone who doesn't draw and quarter perl programmers on sight has me convinced not to bother with Zope any more; I can work with a variety of *tools* like Mason and ACS, rather than buy into *religions*, as Zope appears to be. Shame. I'm mostly a perl programmer, but Zope was convincing me I needed to spend some time on python. But if this list is representitive of the python community - well, I don't need more idiots in my life. -- Rodger Donaldson[EMAIL PROTECTED] "That... feels... wonderful... Bones..." "It's head, Jim." ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris McDonough wrote: Isn't this covered in the FAQ? The FAQ wasn't referred to directly in the original announcement; there was a web page with a FAQ but my mail message was already gone before I read the FAQ. Honestly I'm sort of surprised that there is such a strong reaction to this. When you talk about Perl for Zope, you're talking about three things: It wasn't that strong a reaction; I just think Perl is scary. :) I also think DTML is scary! Expressing my feelings in this is not meant to be a 'strong reaction'; I wasn't complaining (this time :), sorry if it seemed like that. Perl through the web methods Perl external methods Glue code to make these things work properly I presume you're worried about #3. Actually, I shouldn't presume that, I don't know what you're actually worried about. Umm... what *are* you all worried about? I think it'd be mostly glue code, changes to the Zope core, possible side-effects on this change on the Python part (in the sense of "well, we can't do that as that would break Perl compatilility"), all before interfaces have stabilized. The interfaces project is _very_ important, and as another poster expressed, afterwards it's fine to add stuff to the core. Before, it's fairly scary. Anyway, I wasn't that scared. I just don't want to _see_ the Perl support; don't want to have to think about it at all. Cool for the Perl folks, but I just don't want to deal with the consequences myself. :) This is probably because it isn't a feature that helps me any; I'm willing to deal with the consequences of features that I'm interested in, so this is in part selfish. Perhaps more focus on COM/CORBA style component integration could also mitigate this problem? Imagine we build such a future system; if the Perl system goes *around* such an interface, we'll end up with more complex code. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: +[ Chris McDonough ]- | This is pretty silly. I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago. I don't think I've ever seen paranoia and religious fervour mixed in quite the same way before. Anyone would think that people think that python is inadequate as a language. Right; it's more likely the Perlers that do come in (if they will at all!) will learn Python. Legitimate worry 1: If the Perlers *do* come in and *don't* switch to Python soon, we'll run into Zope sites half written in Perl. That may be unpleasant for people to deal with. This is possibly not a big deal; it's unlikely the Perl group will become dominant anyway. This does beg the question why Perl support is put in at all; if the DC people believe this *too*, they're adding a feature that's not even intended to be used as a feature, but is more like a marketing device for Zope. Legitimate worry 2: In order to support Perl, the Zope Python sources will be hacked up and certain new limitations/weirdnesses are introduced. This could be mitigated by *generalizing* the interface with other languages. Not just put in Perl specific patches. Clean interfaces and componentization are the key here. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Look, a whole bunch of great questions for Wed's IRC chat. :^) I propose 1PM Eastern on Wed for the chat. We'll make a more formal announcement tomorrow. (Right, Ethan?) --Paul Jimmie Houchin wrote: Are Python Products considered implementation level? Or another question. What are the current reasons that Perl Products are a no no? Where are the lines for having other languages being first class citizens of Zope without them being "implementation languages"? I think this also goes back to and begs the question of what is core Zope and what is built upon it? This somewhat could be answered by the modularization of Zope and it's companion packages. Just a couple of questions to hopefully clarify things. Jimmie Houchin Paul Everitt wrote: Bill wrote: [snip stuff about Perl's OO model] It's funny that you bring this up. One of the really interesting things about this project so far is learning about Perl internals. You're description is, apparently, pretty accurate. However, the way we've done this mitigates the issue in two ways. First, Perl doesn't need objects to fulfill its job. Functions are bound to the object system. All the real stuff (persistence, transactions, etc.) is in Zope (read: Python). Honestly, the goal really _is_ to make Perl a scripting language for Zope, not an implementation language! The contract says so! Second, ActiveState will work on improving facilities missing in Perl, such as reflection, to support our requirements (e.g. sniffing at method signatures). --Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
I'd happilly pay a few hundred bucks to be able to use Scheme (more specifically Guile with GOOPS and perhaps CMH could use this as an excuse to get finished). []s, |alo + -- Hack and Roll ( http://www.hackandroll.org ) News for, uh, whatever it is that we are. http://zope.gf.com.br/lalo mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgp key: http://zope.gf.com.br/lalo/pessoal/pgp Brazil of Darkness (RPG)--- http://zope.gf.com.br/BroDar ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
I have kept silent on this issue while watching comments fly by. I'll agree with a comment Paul made about passions being high and that can be a good thing. Disagreements are sometimes inevitable, however we do not have to be disagreeable. It seems that many here who do not share the concerns of others have left technically arguments and gone on to calling others childish or silly. It is reasonable and understandable that you may not agree with them. However to resort to such behaviour is below this community. I hope the concerns expressed by many here do not happen. However, that does not mean they can't. I like many here chose Python then Zope. I chose Python not Perl. What is taking place here and has caught many in the community off guard is somewhat of a change in what Zope is. Some have expressed that Zope is already multilingual. That is true to a certain extent. But Perl does not add to Zope capabilities that Python does not have. (IMHO) In this perspective it does not add to Zope. Python, DTML, SQL, XML, XML-RPC, XSLT, etc. are not equivalent languages. They have different scopes and capabilities. Python and Perl are reasonably equivalent in capabilities and it boils down to personal preference on the choice. This brings us back to a change in what Zope is or what Zope has been seen as. This provides an opportunity for DC and the community to really define what is Zope. This discussion needs to clarify what Zope's definition is. This will promote greater understanding and reduce misunderstandings. To this point in many peoples minds Zope has been defined as being Python. This changes things. Yes I understand Zope itself is built in and will continue to be built in Python and C. This is a paradigm shift for many here. Once this settles down, I hope this community will be stronger for it. More comments to follow. Jimmie Houchin ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Are Python Products considered implementation level? Or another question. What are the current reasons that Perl Products are a no no? Where are the lines for having other languages being first class citizens of Zope without them being "implementation languages"? I think this also goes back to and begs the question of what is core Zope and what is built upon it? This somewhat could be answered by the modularization of Zope and it's companion packages. Just a couple of questions to hopefully clarify things. Jimmie Houchin Paul Everitt wrote: Bill wrote: [snip stuff about Perl's OO model] It's funny that you bring this up. One of the really interesting things about this project so far is learning about Perl internals. You're description is, apparently, pretty accurate. However, the way we've done this mitigates the issue in two ways. First, Perl doesn't need objects to fulfill its job. Functions are bound to the object system. All the real stuff (persistence, transactions, etc.) is in Zope (read: Python). Honestly, the goal really _is_ to make Perl a scripting language for Zope, not an implementation language! The contract says so! Second, ActiveState will work on improving facilities missing in Perl, such as reflection, to support our requirements (e.g. sniffing at method signatures). --Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
then educate people as to how to use YNPLOC in a way that matches the Zope philosophy. Ha, "educate people"! Educate people not to use Windows? Educate them at least not to be beaten by ILOVEYOE virus? Anyone succeede in this educating? A lot of people use Windows because they either aren't aware of alternatives or don't understand the alternatives. I've shown people alternatives to Windows, and some times it's worked, other times it hasn't. Education done well can work wonders, but I wouldn't say it works all the time - some people are never going to listen. :-( The important thing, IMHO, is to make the effort to get people to understand the philosophy behind Zope. Some people are going to ignore it irrespective, but many could well take notice and be "saved" from doing the wrong thing. If you don't try, those people will slip through the net and end up charging into Zope the wrong way. John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Michel Pelletier wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: J. Atwood wrote: Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right. I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad enough already! :) Zope doesn't ship with any components written in SQL, it is probably the case that it won't ship with any components written in Perl. Also, this is through the web style perl methods ala PythonMethods (I believe, I'm not on top of this project). ALthought it may be possible, I'mguessing that writing a full fledged Zope product in perl would be trickier than it's worth. I certainly hope so1 :-) I echo another question: will this be a product we can choose not to install, just as PythonMethods is? Don't worry, like Paul said, Zope has methods in many languages and more to come, Perl is a great step forward in telling people that we are not interested in excluding, but including. Sooner or later, someone on the perl side is going to spend all of their effort and come up with something that tries to be like Zope, this is a waste of effort. Look at Gnome and KDE and how they are constantly working to cross purposes, inventing the same interfaces at thousands of levels in subltly or grossly different ways. It's actually pretty depressing when you think about how an unified effort would far exceed the sum of the two incredible efforts to date. Actually, there is good reason to doubt such a thing could exist. GNOME was born in no small part due to the GNOME folks not able to get along with (on a variety of levels)/or agree with the KDE folks. To think they could have produced a 'better' interface in a 'unified' effort is at best hopeful. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 03:02:42PM +, Michael Bernstein wrote: In you hadn't noticed, ActiveState already has dealings 'with the dark side'. Bring on the paranoia people! Microsoft _invests_ in ActiveState. ActiveState originally started with a Win32 port of Perl, together with support packages for Perl on Win32 platforms. And commercial development tools, like a visual debugger, and special versions of Perl that plug into IIS and the ActiveScripting platform. At IPC8 this January, they announced they were extending their services to Python as well. This means that ActiveState now also does Python for Win32, with all extensions, support, and commercial products they do for Perl as well. It's what they are good at. No wonder Microsoft invests in ActiveState, because Microsoft wants Win32 to be a strong development platform. Now, for all of you who are worried about M$ domination, ActiveState only just announced that they'll be adding support for Perl and Python to Mozilla, not just on win32, but, IIRC, all platforms where both Mozilla and the scripting languages in question run. And they'll throw in an IDE built on Mozilla as well, which will therefor run on all platforms Mozilla can run on. And there was much rejoicing. -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ | The Open Source Web Application Server - ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes In the future, I'd be happy (and expect) to see other languages supported, XQL, TCL, PHP, lisp, Fortran, . :) What I would like to see first is support for Rebol ( www.rebol.com ). It's a great language for writing internet robots ( grabbing content off remote pages or ftp sites, retrieving mail, sending mail, scheduling jobs ) inter alia. Would fill a lot of the gaps that Zope has. - -- Regards, Graham Chiu gchiuatcompkarori.co.nz http://www.compkarori.co.nz/index.php Powered by Interbase and Zope -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBOS5h87TRdIWzaLpMEQILLQCbBzAYZ90+UTWq1dWvm8EnOhd+k9gAoIaE kpoJVTSfQiK5eMstHi54zNSf =XWCR -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
+[ Denis [Fr_re] ]- [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] | "J. Atwood" wrote: | | Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there | would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? | Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do | it right. | | Let's take up bets. | | In an egg, there is white and yellow, | when these are mixed, what does remain ? | Just yellow, doesn't it ? It doesn't matter how much you shake an egg. It's still got a yolk and a white. You have to smash open the egg and break the yolk before you get just 'yellow' -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Paul Everitt wrote: Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start distributing over the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you folks see it first. In summary: Perl Methods. Why is this a good thing? ;-) Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Agreed... We can use COM, CORBA, SOAP, etc. ~BDW At 05:19 25/05/00 -0400, Paul Everitt wrote: That's quite a strained metaphor. I'll be pretty unequivocal. Anyone that thinks we are lessening our commitment to Python (a) hasn't read the FAQ before reacting and (b) doesn't know us very well. On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities. --Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Budi Wiyono wrote: Agreed... We can use COM, CORBA, SOAP, etc. On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities. --Paul Now ya talkin :-) bring it on... Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I I'm personally looking forward to being able to use Perl with Zope, so long as the Perl support is implemented in a Zope-consistent fashion. But I'm always used to being the odd one out ;-) With situations like mixed-language support I'm probably going to end up at NIP having to continue to use just Python for the benefit of others, though there are enough Perl developers in the office to take my place should I disappear. In fact, it might encourage some of the other developers to take a look at Zope more, I suspect Python is putting them off odd as that may sound. Erm, but anyway the point is it's not compulsory to use Perl now that the option will be available, and in most cases it would be best to ensure developers use the same language. I use Python here in the office because it's what everyone else uses, it's a capable language and it provides consistency with what everyone else is doing. I doubt I'll be able to deviate and use Perl without extremely good reasons, personal preference won't be accepted by the others I can safely say. Eh Chris? ;-) John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
The only badness I can see coming out of this is this: At present, I can consult at a client who is running Zope, and I'm reasonably confident that I can read and understand all their code. When people can write their site half in Perl, I could well be stuck... unless I learn Perl :-) I can see this being a genuine concern. That's the first I've seen (it's a good one). ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Kevin Dangoor wrote: People who are big fans of python aren't forced to use those Products, but I Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in Perl (yse, I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, mark you). Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer) Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Well, I can see good points here. Perl methods probably will attract more users. But I can see bad points, too. What if my perl developer resigned? Should I pick up his code? I don't want, I want Python. Should I spent a lot of time manually converting his code to Python Method and debug it? "There is always too many ways to do it" - it is Perl motto, not Python. I am pretty sure Zope shouldn't has too many scripting languages. Many protocols - yes, it is very good. But many languages? No, that's bad. I was thinking about the announcement for a while as well. I do not like Perl. I think your point is very good though. Right now I am using Zope for a client and everything is fine. If Zope supports Perl, they may hire Perl people. And you are right, what if they quit? It may happen that the market to find qualified Zope programmers becomes even tighter, since Zope programmers are now required to speak both, Python and Perl well. From a technological and development point of view, I think implementing Perl is great and very excitingimagining making this "scribble" language object-oriented. But at the end I like my good looking object-oriented Python code. :) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU - Physics and Chemistry Web2k - Web Design/Development Technical Project Management ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris McDonough wrote: This is pretty silly. Very soon we'll be forced, 'cause most Products will be in Perl (yse, I've read the FAQ and saw "no Perl Products"; it's temporary, mark you). I have to say, I'm not convinced it is. Providing Perl methods is like drilling a hole through a dyke wall. By getting loads of perl programmers on board, you suddenly have a large userbase wishing they can do more in perl, so you implement perl products. (yes, I've read the FAQ too, hence my politicians comment...) This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. Suddenly Zope is a total mess of perl and python and the whole community shifts onto something cleaner leaving DC high and dry and spoiling a perfect solution... pessimistic, I know, but pessimism if often appropriate in computing... Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
+[ Chris McDonough ]- | This is pretty silly. I agree, it got silly about 8 hours ago. I don't think I've ever seen paranoia and religious fervour mixed in quite the same way before. Anyone would think that people think that python is inadequate as a language. If you don't want people working for you to write perl, tell them they can't write it in perl. I find the whole 'perl will pollute us' mentality quite disappointing, it's worse than a bunch of school girls arguing over which all boy band is best. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
+[ Chris Withers ]- | | This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. | | Suddenly Zope is a total mess of perl and python and the whole community | shifts onto something cleaner leaving DC high and dry and spoiling a | perfect solution... So retaliate by making PHP into a python project. d8) If the phantom 'perl userbase' could 'hack into the core' and put perl in there, why would they wait for perl methods to become available first? They would have implemented PerlZope long before this. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: I find the whole 'perl will pollute us' mentality quite disappointing, it's worse than a bunch of school girls arguing over which all boy band is best. You never seen blokes arguing over which girl band is best ;-) I agree though since it's a moot point anyway. It's going to happen now and we just have to live with it :S Chris ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
I find the whole 'perl will pollute us' mentality quite disappointing, it's worse than a bunch of school girls arguing over which all boy band is best. You never seen blokes arguing over which girl band is best ;-) It's a coin flip between Kittie and L7 IMHO, anyone who disagrees can meet me outside to discuss it ;-) I agree though since it's a moot point anyway. It's going to happen now and we just have to live with it :S Yep, seriously I think it's only a problem if people make it a problem. At the moment the "evil" threat of Perl is on the horizon, it's not here so there's plenty of time to prepare. You don't have to go the Perl route, but if you're worried that insert your non-Python language of choice here is going to be a negative influence, which to me suggests doubt about Zope and Python IMHO, then educate people as to how to use YNPLOC in a way that matches the Zope philosophy. It's not worth arguing about, we're all united by Zope aren't we? John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Chris Withers wrote: I have to say, I'm not convinced it is. Providing Perl methods is like drilling a hole through a dyke wall. By getting loads of perl programmers on board, you suddenly have a large userbase wishing they can do more in perl, so you implement perl products. (yes, I've read the FAQ too, hence my politicians comment...) This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. Yeah, but for that you'd need to be able to import Python code into Perl, or alternatively reimplement all those core classes (ObjectManager, etc.). And integrate Perl code with ZODB (pickle instances of perl classes.) Why would anyone spend time doing that? -- Itamar S.T. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
- Original Message - From: "Chris Withers" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Kevin Dangoor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: "Chris McDonough" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Zope Mailing List" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope Kevin Dangoor wrote: perl will be able to create complete through the web Products in perl/dtml. No!!! Keep perl and DTML seperate. If people want to play in Perl fine, but keep it seperate from everything else. Perl-only methods and external methods, no DTML mangling and no perl expression in dtml tags. Newbies get confused enough with python... Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like THAT! (Which would indeed be appalling.) What I meant was that a typical through the web product developed today would be a combination of PythonMethods and DTML... people coming from the perl world could make their products using PerlMethods and DTML. Expressions in DTML are still python, which shouldn't be *too* painful for perl folks. Kevin ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
On Thu, 25 May 2000, John Chandler wrote: then educate people as to how to use YNPLOC in a way that matches the Zope philosophy. Ha, "educate people"! Educate people not to use Windows? Educate them at least not to be beaten by ILOVEYOE virus? Anyone succeede in this educating? It's not worth arguing about, we're all united by Zope aren't we? Zope AND Python! Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer) Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Itamar Shtull-Trauring wrote: Chris Withers wrote: I have to say, I'm not convinced it is. Providing Perl methods is like drilling a hole through a dyke wall. By getting loads of perl programmers on board, you suddenly have a large userbase wishing they can do more in perl, so you implement perl products. (yes, I've read the FAQ too, hence my politicians comment...) This userbase gets into hacking the core and bring perl into there. This is my primary concern as well. History bears this concern out. Keep the programming languages to Python (and some C where needed, of course). Even if it isn't done by DC, a large perl user base *will* come up with perl products. At which point DC will either be pressured into accepting them into thecore, or watching the branch become the dominant Zope. Yeah, but for that you'd need to be able to import Python code into Perl, or alternatively reimplement all those core classes (ObjectManager, etc.). And integrate Perl code with ZODB (pickle instances of perl classes.) Why would anyone spend time doing that? Two questions: o Seen Minotaur? o Beacuse that's what perlers do: they rewrite everything as often as they can ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"J. Atwood" wrote: Gang (and Paul), I guess my major concern (and mosts) would be that one of the reasons we like Python/Zope/OO is that it is not Perl and does not have all that quirky structure and if you introduce Perl into Zope it would be like throwing a pair of red socks in your white wash, we all go pink. After some thought last night (no sleep loss) I could see it working in the way of a product or a Perl Method and not disturbing the DTML code (please don't do this). Exactly, we don't let python disturb DTML, why would we let perl? The end result though is that if we can get the Perl community to start using/developing on Zope it is a big win. This is, in fact, one of the key points. -- -Michel Pelletier http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/MyWiki Visit WikiCentral for the latest Zen: http://www.zope.org/Members/WikiCentral ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"J. Atwood" wrote: The real question is: Can we get all those Perl people to help with our documentation? :) I hope so. I, for one, will welcome my Perl brothers (actually sent the ANN post to two of them five seconds after reading it) and hope that together we can bring Zope to everyone. This is the right attitude. We don't want these folks coming in here with their years of experience and thousands of lines of code and snub them. We don't want flame wars. We don't want people asking questions and getting answers like "oh, well why the hell are you using Perl anyway?". I for one don't know perl, can't read it, never used it and probably won't unless I'm paid to; and if someone asks me a question about their snip of perl code I won't be able to help them. But if someone asks me about a peice of well documented Zope interface, it shouldn't matter which language they speak, they should get a clear answer. This is more important than the syntax anyday. -- -Michel Pelletier http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/MyWiki Visit WikiCentral for the latest Zen: http://www.zope.org/Members/WikiCentral ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Martijn Faassen wrote: J. Atwood wrote: Stunned. Totally and utterly stunned. I would have thought there would be Java floating around in Zope's bowl before Perl! Perl? Jeeze... what a great but very scary thing. I trust that DC will do it right. I'd agree with the scary part. Scaaary. I hope DC will do it right indeed, and that I can't *see* the Perl if I don't want to see it. DTML is bad enough already! :) Zope doesn't ship with any components written in SQL, it is probably the case that it won't ship with any components written in Perl. Also, this is through the web style perl methods ala PythonMethods (I believe, I'm not on top of this project). ALthought it may be possible, I'mguessing that writing a full fledged Zope product in perl would be trickier than it's worth. Don't worry, like Paul said, Zope has methods in many languages and more to come, Perl is a great step forward in telling people that we are not interested in excluding, but including. Sooner or later, someone on the perl side is going to spend all of their effort and come up with something that tries to be like Zope, this is a waste of effort. Look at Gnome and KDE and how they are constantly working to cross purposes, inventing the same interfaces at thousands of levels in subltly or grossly different ways. It's actually pretty depressing when you think about how an unified effort would far exceed the sum of the two incredible efforts to date. We don't want that in the web world. -- -Michel Pelletier http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/MyWiki Visit WikiCentral for the latest Zen: http://www.zope.org/Members/WikiCentral ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Digicool's announcement of some Perl support for Zope obviously surprised a lot of people. I haven't seen much positive reaction here on the list. In fact, I daresay I have seen some concerns which I consider to be quite valid indeed. After all, a web developer who is a Python fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language. [Sh|H]e is unlikely to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise would go hand in hand. [ Oops, sorry. Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language bias show through in the previous paragraph? ;-) ] Actually, I'm posting this note to offer another perspective, in support of this news. The following is just my opinion, formulated largely out of conjecture and a desire to view this Perl-Zope announcement in a more positive light: In the bigger picture, maybe it's not about "Perl vs. Python". Maybe it's about "scripting languages vs. Java". Sad to say, a majority of IT people in the world think that the terms "application server" and "Java" are nearly synonymous. Next time you have a chance to visit a major Internet tradeshow, look around at all the Java-based application servers. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting one of them. Zope is different. It's certainly accurate to say that Zope is all about Python. However, it's also somewhat accurate to say that Zope is about server-side *scripting*. I don't see this announcement as a major shift toward Perl on the part of the Zope developers. Looking over the history of Digital Creations and its team, it seems quite obvious that any of them could prick their finger and see Python code flowing out instead of blood. I *speculate* that this announcement is simply a consequence of Really Big Vision. Right now, Zope is 'The Python Application Server'. Let's suppose for a moment that Zope's ambitions are much bigger than we think, and that its commitment to purity is slightly lower than we think. In other words, let's just suppose that Zope really wants to be 'The Scripting-Language Application Server'. If so, then why should it not invite the [enormous] Perl crowd into its community? -- Eric W. Sink, Software Craftsman SourceGear Corporation [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
"Eric W. Sink" wrote: After all, a web developer who is a Python fanatic chooses Zope for its underlying language. [Sh|H]e is unlikely to react warmly to the stench of Perl and the hideous possibility that a customer might develop the expectation that Zope and Perl expertise would go hand in hand. [ Oops, sorry. Did I accidentally let my personal scripting language bias show through in the previous paragraph? ;-) ] :-). I think there is a significant proportion of Python programmers who are Perl refugees (funny, you don't hear much about the flip-side of that equation), so this announcement was bound to rub a few raw nerves the wrong way (if you pardon the metaphor mix). I'm glad my Perl maintenance days are (mostly) behind me (where the only # in a 4K+ script was the #! invocation at the start - shudder), so I wasn't too sure what I thought when I read the announcement. But I figure DC are pretty smart guys (heck, look at Zope - I couldn't dream that up in a month of Bourbon), and so far they've been on the ball, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Heck, might even win a few more Python cultists^Wactivists^Wenthusiasts along the way. :-) (* Other well thought comments regretfully snipped *). Regards, Daryl Tester ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Ooo Ooo - XSLT? Presumably I should read your sentence as "You will have the option of using Perl as well as XSLT methods pretty soon" and not "Thou wilt need Perl to get XSLT methods" ? :) The former... see http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-xml/UseCases ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] ANN: Perl For Zope
Paul Everitt wrote: That's [the egg] quite a strained metaphor. I'll be pretty unequivocal. Anyone that thinks we are lessening our commitment to Python (a) hasn't read the FAQ before reacting and (b) doesn't know us very well. On the other hand, we'll likely do even more things like this over the year: open up to COM, CORBA, etc. as method facilities. Context === Now, it's late, I've read the whole thread and I'm very calm, I swear. You asked our thoughts, here are mine, with humility. A cheap market study, you must confess ... I'm a french speaking Belgian, excuse my strange English. Prolog == I didn't say you were lessening your commitment to Python and (a) I had read the FAQ (b) your answer shows I'm not quite wrong about you. But I must admit I was not explicit enough ... (I'll come back with this a few lines further :-) Act 1 = Why do we love Python ? Because of the Zen. "Explicit is better than Implicit, ..." I'm sure you know Tim Peeters Classics. We love Python because of its purity. Why were the two colorfull metaphors speaking about white and another color ? (Red socks and yolk). White is Python. Act2 Zope is not quite white. And most of us wanted it whitened, with age and maturity. Do you need to be burnt to accept the stove is hot ? Then, look at the symptom in this list : you're overwhelmed with posts you can't answer to. Why are there so much posts ? Because there are so much Zopistas ? I would love to think so. But I fear it's because the ZDP is still so young (they yell for help not far from here), and you, you're very cute Python programmers, but couldn't help but mess python purity to get things running as you wanted. With Python, it rolls; with Zope it sometimes roll, but then it's so good, mmmh ? There are lots of strange features, black magic. At least for most of your users, some may have better eyes. Act3 And now, you think you're ready to bite in the Perl apple. I would have think you could grow a little stronger before attracting foreign intricacy, increasing product support needs. Python helps you, I hope you're strong enough with such a weapon to grow up and to firm up at the same time. I hope you see now I'm not fighting against Perl, COM or CORBA. I fear nor hate either. It's about you and us, your community. You do anything to broaden your base and you say we won't be splashed ? Will we gain or loose if you succeed in attracting Perl developers (I don't predict a big rush, they are so shy :-) Will Zope be stronger or messier. It's a political choice. If you don't fear some losses in your ranks, provided you get new strong soldiers further, all right, that's a good choice, you're rational. After all, product support is your job, you'll have more work opportunities so. If you love Python because Python is also CP4E, if you'd love Zope to be WP4E (Web Publication for Everybody), you're running too fast. From here where I sit, it looks like the RedHat Syndrom. I hope I'm wrong. I hope it's just because I'm getting old and I fear that juvenile impatience. Epilog == Explicit is better than Implicit. I give you the mike, tell us what your priorities are, what you do want to achieve. So, you'll be "unequivocal", we'll know you better. "The synergy between the decision to go open source and the increase in revenue is direct. It's astounding," Everitt said(*). What next ? Lucrative open source or real Zen ? (*) Linux Journal http://www.linux-mag.com/cgi-bin/printer.pl?issue=2000-01article=venture -- Denis Frère P3B: Club Free-Pytho-Linuxien Carolorégien http://www.p3b.org Aragne : Internet - Réseaux - Formations http://www.aragne.com ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
