Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting
On 25 Oct 2000, at 16:50, Bill Anderson wrote: OK, tim e fo rme to weigh in on this. Reboot frequency is a matter of experience and perspective. I don't believe that broadening the discussion along these lines will serve this mailing list in any way, so I refrain from commenting on most of these statements. Just let me remark that I dislike marketing gibberish independed of the origin it comes from. I made my point, i.e. as long as Zope isn't up to serving as a single-instance long time server anyway, who cares about the underlying OS. It might be hard to comprehend for some, but this statement doesn't say anything about how I value uptime rates. [...] If, on the other hand, you don't come from that background or need, and are not used to that type of environment, a few months to six months to nearly a year can mean something to you. Well, I still remember the times when my companies large IBM mainframe had to be IPLed for hardware maintenance, after running literally for years, while our Unix based workstations and servers celebrated their crashes almost daily. In these times, I had to relink the kernel and to reinstall the OS, in order to add a lousy floppy drive or some memory to my Unix workstation. Eeek. The statelessness of NFS, for example, came for a reason, you know. -- Wolfgang Strobl ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting (was:How many houres do I need tomanage a Zope) site?
sorry if this is offtopic, but i see reference of rebooting every so often with NT( and maybe W2K). is this real? or FUD? i use linux myself and would like to confirm this from all you guys' experience Do I miss important tasks? Has anybody done this before? Yeah.. rebooting NT every 4 days. :) J ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting (was:How many houres do I need to manage a Zope) site?
My 2 ZoNT (Zope on NT workstation) boxen haven't needed rebooting yet. They sit mostly idle with occasional light loads. They are P100/32MB/1.2GB old(er than dirt) Industrial Computer Supply boxes. You know, 19" rack mount 4U units. Good, solid, slow hardware. They survive NT rather well. One is running 2 instances of Zope (one for dev) and has been for 15 days since last reboot. I will be looking for at least a 6 month uptime. They serve a departmental intranet application that I am writing. It's on NT because I need to use ODBC to get to a local MS Access Database. Bummer. Troy -Original Message- From: Bak @ kedai [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:49 AM To: Diny van Gool; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; J. Atwood Subject: Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting (was:How many houres do I need to manage a Zope) site? sorry if this is offtopic, but i see reference of rebooting every so often with NT( and maybe W2K). is this real? or FUD? i use linux myself and would like to confirm this from all you guys' experience Do I miss important tasks? Has anybody done this before? Yeah.. rebooting NT every 4 days. :) J ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting
[...] To: trimmed to zope.org On 25 Oct 2000, 23:49 Bak @ kedai wrote: sorry if this is offtopic, but i see reference of rebooting every so often with NT( and maybe W2K). is this real? or FUD? i use linux myself and would like to confirm this from all you guys' experience It's FUD. I'M running Zope on two NT servers here, which run many months between reboots. I just checked - the Zope on the intranet server has an uptime of 34 days 8 hours 32 min 3 sec now. This tells us that I installed Zope 2.2.2 three days after it was released on www.zope.org. :-) Do I miss important tasks? Has anybody done this before? Yeah.. rebooting NT every 4 days. :) -- o ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] (+49 2241) 14-2394 /\* GMD mbH #include _`\ `_=== Schloss Birlinghoven, std.disclaimer __(_)/_(_)___.-._ 53754 Sankt Augustin, Germany ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting (was:How many houres do I need to manage a Zope) site?
My 2 ZoNT (Zope on NT workstation) boxen haven't needed rebooting yet. They sit mostly idle with occasional light loads. They are P100/32MB/1.2GB old(er than dirt) Industrial Computer Supply boxes. You know, 19" rack mount 4U units. Good, solid, slow hardware. They survive NT rather well. One is running 2 instances of Zope (one for dev) and has been for 15 days since last reboot. I will be looking for at least a 6 month uptime. They serve a departmental intranet application that I am writing. It's on NT because I need to use ODBC to get to a local MS Access Database. Bummer. Troy -Original Message- From: Bak @ kedai [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:49 AM To: Diny van Gool; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; J. Atwood Subject: Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting (was:How many houres do I need to manage a Zope) site? sorry if this is offtopic, but i see reference of rebooting every so often with NT( and maybe W2K). is this real? or FUD? i use linux myself and would like to confirm this from all you guys' experience I have had a number of Zope sites running on NT with rather modest hardware. It performed reasonably to good and without troubles for months on an end, even with several people developing on it and a number of students accessing it. Mostly ODBC (SQL Server and even Access) will also work without trouble. It will also behind IIS. If something goes wrong it is usually an ODBC problem no Zope internal problem. The only real major problem is when SQL This is no pro NT argument, but just a reassurance that there is no reason not to use Zope on NT, though I would switch to Linux if I could... Rik ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting
"Months without rebooting"? That is certainly not something to brag about. With three of my installations of Zope on Linux I have the machines at 194, 204 and 55 days of uptime (and the 55 was because of a bad powerstrip, the other others have been up since I brought them up). While NT can and does stay up for long periods of time, it still is a very poor server choice as anything you install leads to a reboot. I have installed countless things on the Linux boxes and never brought it down. That is the difference and makes all the difference when it comes to a website. J From: "Wolfgang Strobl" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: GMD Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:13:32 +0200 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting [...] To: trimmed to zope.org On 25 Oct 2000, 23:49 Bak @ kedai wrote: sorry if this is offtopic, but i see reference of rebooting every so often with NT( and maybe W2K). is this real? or FUD? i use linux myself and would like to confirm this from all you guys' experience It's FUD. I'M running Zope on two NT servers here, which run many months between reboots. I just checked - the Zope on the intranet server has an uptime of 34 days 8 hours 32 min 3 sec now. This tells us that I installed Zope 2.2.2 three days after it was released on www.zope.org. :-) Do I miss important tasks? Has anybody done this before? Yeah.. rebooting NT every 4 days. :) -- o ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] (+49 2241) 14-2394 /\* GMD mbH #include _`\ `_=== Schloss Birlinghoven, std.disclaimer __(_)/_(_)___.-._ 53754 Sankt Augustin, Germany ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting
"Months without rebooting"? That is certainly not something to brag about. With three of my installations of Zope on Linux I have the machines at 194, 204 and 55 days of uptime (and the 55 was because of a bad powerstrip, the other others have been up since I brought them up). While NT can and does stay up for long periods of time, it still is a very poor server choice as anything you install leads to a reboot. I have installed countless things on the Linux boxes and never brought it down. That is the difference and makes all the difference when it comes to a website. Agreed, but that wasn't the point Rik ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of It's FUD. I'M running Zope on two NT servers here, which run many months between reboots. I just checked - the Zope on the intranet server has an uptime of 34 days 8 hours 32 min 3 sec now. I must say that I agree. All in all for my current needs, NT is a better choice than Linux. Better user interface and reasonable software uptime. I am slowly migrating to Linux though. As I really do believe the open source philosophy is better. But like Zope it is a b of a learning curve. Something like Zope shows it in a smaller scale. I would be willing to start a business on Zope technology because coorporation on the toolset is the smartest thing for service companies to do, and this is not a closed source option. I have tried some of the closed source application servers and they are so poor. Funnily enough I see companies reinventing the weel with these application servers, doing a lousy job every time. Zope is still not great, but lightyears ahead of anything else I have experienced. Being a web house and not doing an open source app server is so futile. Furthermore the new KDE2.0 looks really sexy. Just gotta finish one more project then I will upgrade from my old KDE1.0. Max M ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting
On 25 Oct 2000, at 16:00, J. Atwood wrote:
"Months without rebooting"?
That is certainly not something to brag about.
Huh? Did anybody? Certainly not me. :-{
In case I didn't make myself clear: for running Zope; I don't care
much whether the OS needs a reboot every month, every year, or
every decade, when I have to upgrade and/or restart Zope for
installing Hotfixes and/or new products, every other month,
anyway.
With three of my
installations of Zope on Linux I have the machines at 194, 204 and 55 days
of uptime (and the 55 was because of a bad powerstrip, the other others have
been up since I brought them up).
So what. I'm using an old 3.51 server on one of my companies
intranets here, serving as a backup domain controller plus a few
other, less important services, which is running for about half a
year now (power failure in the machine room, too). That machine
has begun life as a OS/2 Lanmanager server (ca '90), and has
been upgraded almost seamlessly again and again, both in
hardware and in software, since.
While NT can and does stay up for long
periods of time, it still is a very poor server choice as anything you
install leads to a reboot.
Well, W2K certainly has more capabilities here, and Linux, for
example, is somewhat better in some (!) areas, but "anything" is
a gross exaggeration.
I have installed countless things on the Linux
boxes and never brought it down. That is the difference and makes all the
difference when it comes to a website.
The vagueness of the first statement doesn't justify your
conclusing, IMHO. But to each his own.
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Re: [Zope] OT:NT and rebooting
Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
On 25 Oct 2000, at 16:00, J. Atwood wrote:
"Months without rebooting"?
That is certainly not something to brag about.
Huh? Did anybody? Certainly not me. :-{
In case I didn't make myself clear: for running Zope; I don't care
much whether the OS needs a reboot every month, every year, or
every decade, when I have to upgrade and/or restart Zope for
installing Hotfixes and/or new products, every other month,
anyway.
OK, tim e fo rme to weigh in on this. Reboot frequency is a matter of
experience and perspective. If you are used to uptimes measured in
years, or 'always on' environments, then NT's uptime rates are abject
failures. That's not a slight, it is a statement of fact that even Mr.
Gates himself agrees with and understands.
If, on the other hand, you don't come from that background or need, and
are not used to that type of environment, a few months to six months to
nearly a year can mean something to you.
So, this is *one* of the reasons we see these arguments about uptime
from both sides of the windows vs everything else uptime wars. Some
measure days, some months, and otehrs measure in terms of years.
With three of my
installations of Zope on Linux I have the machines at 194, 204 and 55 days
of uptime (and the 55 was because of a bad powerstrip, the other others have
been up since I brought them up).
So what. I'm using an old 3.51 server on one of my companies
intranets here, serving as a backup domain controller plus a few
other, less important services, which is running for about half a
year now (power failure in the machine room, too). That machine
has begun life as a OS/2 Lanmanager server (ca '90), and has
been upgraded almost seamlessly again and again, both in
hardware and in software, since.
And has been rebooted to perfrom those upgrades (software, the hardware
is obvious), has it not?
While NT can and does stay up for long
periods of time, it still is a very poor server choice as anything you
install leads to a reboot.
Well, W2K certainly has more capabilities here, and Linux, for
example, is somewhat better in some (!) areas, but "anything" is
a gross exaggeration.
While I agree that 'anything' is a poor choice of words, unless you are
changing kernels and/or glibc, Linux does not require a reboot for
install of any software (that I am aware of, and that is a high amount
of software mind you). There is work in progress to alleviate that as
well. Not quickly, as it is a rather complex undertaking, but it is
ongoing.
IIRC, kernel 2.4 will/does have support for hot swappable PCI devices on
hardware that has it (yes, you can get Intel-compat hardware with that).
Last I checked, if you try to hot-swap a keyboard or mouse, all versions
minus 2k (haven't tried it there), will die. As far as 'lack of need to
reboot' goes when concerning upgrades, Linux wins hands down..
So, the question regarding uptime is more a question of needs. Some of
us need 24x7 availablility, and 5 nines. Some do not. For those of us
needing 5 nines, we can use Unix/Linux to provide that. If you don't
need it (and not everyone does), use other criteria more appropriate to
your needs.
--
E PLURIBUS LINUX
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