Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-25 Thread Paul Winkler
On Fri, Apr 08, 2005 at 06:58:31PM +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote:
 Lennart Regebro wrote at 2005-4-8 10:59 +0200:
  ...
 On Apr 8, 2005 8:48 AM, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  ...
  Which The Zope Book are you referring to?
  
  The 2.6 one on Zope.org?
  The 2.7 one on Plope.com?
  The 3.whatever one somewhere-I-don't-know?
 
 I would expect it to be featured, that is mentioned as a recommended
 practice, in a Zope2.9 book, should one appear. I also thonk that with
 2.8 a 2.8 book should be released, which main feature could be to move
 the ZClass part to an appendix.
 
 Indead, something along this line...

Considering that we still have not finished the 2.7 edition
of the book, I find it very unlikely that we will manage
to get something out in sync with the first zope 2.8 release.

Anyone who wishes to help us edit the book is encouraged to visit 
http://plope.com/Books/zb_signup

-- 

Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
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Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-24 Thread Dieter Maurer
Lennart Regebro wrote at 2005-4-8 10:59 +0200:
 ...
On Apr 8, 2005 8:48 AM, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 ...
 Which The Zope Book are you referring to?
 
 The 2.6 one on Zope.org?
 The 2.7 one on Plope.com?
 The 3.whatever one somewhere-I-don't-know?

I would expect it to be featured, that is mentioned as a recommended
practice, in a Zope2.9 book, should one appear. I also thonk that with
2.8 a 2.8 book should be released, which main feature could be to move
the ZClass part to an appendix.

Indead, something along this line...

-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-12 Thread Dario Lopez-Kästen
Chris McDonough wrote:
I don't think anyone has given much thought to actually documenting all
these nice nifty features in 2.9.  Which is no change from the norm, and
it will be a fairly organic process again.  I hate it, but whatever.
- C
Speaking of which, and being one of the people that promised to deliver 
but has not done so 100% yet, is it possible to checkout the Zope Book 
from cvs or svn?

That'd help a lot in terms of incrementally adding stuff, at least for me.
Thanks,
/dario
--
-- ---
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...and click? damn, I need to kill -9 Word again... - b using macosx
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Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-12 Thread Chris McDonough
No, sorry.  THe canonical version is on the web.

- C

On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 04:10, Dario Lopez-Ksten wrote:
 Chris McDonough wrote:
  I don't think anyone has given much thought to actually documenting all
  these nice nifty features in 2.9.  Which is no change from the norm, and
  it will be a fairly organic process again.  I hate it, but whatever.
  
  - C
  
 
 Speaking of which, and being one of the people that promised to deliver 
 but has not done so 100% yet, is it possible to checkout the Zope Book 
 from cvs or svn?
 
 That'd help a lot in terms of incrementally adding stuff, at least for me.
 
 Thanks,
 
 /dario

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Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-08 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Apr 8, 2005 8:48 AM, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dieter Maurer wrote:
  When will they feature in *the* Zope Book?
 
 Which The Zope Book are you referring to?
 
 The 2.6 one on Zope.org?
 The 2.7 one on Plope.com?
 The 3.whatever one somewhere-I-don't-know?

I would expect it to be featured, that is mentioned as a recommended
practice, in a Zope2.9 book, should one appear. I also thonk that with
2.8 a 2.8 book should be released, which main feature could be to move
the ZClass part to an appendix.

-- 
Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-08 Thread Chris McDonough
I don't think anyone has given much thought to actually documenting all
these nice nifty features in 2.9.  Which is no change from the norm, and
it will be a fairly organic process again.  I hate it, but whatever.

- C


On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 11:22, Paul Winkler wrote:
 On Fri, Apr 08, 2005 at 10:59:46AM +0200, Lennart Regebro wrote:
  On Apr 8, 2005 8:48 AM, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Dieter Maurer wrote:
When will they feature in *the* Zope Book?
   
   Which The Zope Book are you referring to?
   
   The 2.6 one on Zope.org?
   The 2.7 one on Plope.com?
   The 3.whatever one somewhere-I-don't-know?
  
  I would expect it to be featured, that is mentioned as a recommended
  practice, in a Zope2.9 book, should one appear. I also thonk that with
  2.8 a 2.8 book should be released, which main feature could be to move
  the ZClass part to an appendix.
 
 I would love that. But in the present day, we haven't even finished the
 2.7 book.  I suppose we could just change the book's release number from
 2.7 to 2.8 and hope that's adequate ;-)
 
 But that leaves unanswered questions - should we document the Five stuff
 at all, and if so, how?
 
 The primary problem with the Zope Book is still the relative scarcity of
 resources (i.e. editors with time to work on it).
 
 The secondary problem with the Zope Book is that it's showing its age:
 the choice and organization of topics is IMHO less than ideal, but that
 can't be sufficiently addressed on a chapter-by-chapter basis, one needs
 to have a good overview of the whole project.  This vastly increases the
 scope of the task.
 
 Sadly I can't see the status quo changing unless somebody wants to
 invest sufficient money in the project so that some of the independent
 contractors involved could schedule work on the book as an actual paying
 job.  Hopefully one of two things will happen:
 
 * I will be proven wrong, or
 * such money will materialize somehow :-)

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Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-08 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Apr 8, 2005 5:22 PM, Paul Winkler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 But that leaves unanswered questions - should we document the Five stuff
 at all, and if so, how?

Well, the Five stuff is a subset of the Zope3 stuff, with way too much
Zope2 stuff still necessary. The idea is that this should change quite
rapidly and get more and more Zope3-ish and become less and less of a
subset.

So it may be that documenting it is a bit of a waste of time. I think
the most realistic part is to rename the 2.7 book to 2.8, move
ZClasses and DTML last, note that 2.8 includes some Zope3 support but
don't document it.

Then we'll concentrate on getting 2.9s Zope3 support to be more
Zope3-ish, and documenting the differences into a Zope2.9 book. ;)

I don't have an overview of what needs to be done on the Zope book in
general though.

-- 
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CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-08 Thread Paul Winkler
On Fri, Apr 08, 2005 at 05:41:30PM +0200, Lennart Regebro wrote:
 On Apr 8, 2005 5:22 PM, Paul Winkler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  But that leaves unanswered questions - should we document the Five stuff
  at all, and if so, how?
 
 Well, the Five stuff is a subset of the Zope3 stuff, with way too much
 Zope2 stuff still necessary. The idea is that this should change quite
 rapidly and get more and more Zope3-ish and become less and less of a
 subset.
 
 So it may be that documenting it is a bit of a waste of time. I think
 the most realistic part is to rename the 2.7 book to 2.8, move
 ZClasses and DTML last, note that 2.8 includes some Zope3 support but
 don't document it.

OK, but there should at least be a pointer to something to read
for people wanting to get started with 2.8.0/Five. 
I haven't yet looked at any of the Five stuff.
Is there at least a README? :)
 
 Then we'll concentrate on getting 2.9s Zope3 support to be more
 Zope3-ish, and documenting the differences into a Zope2.9 book. ;)

Yes, I'm sure we will ;-)
 
 I don't have an overview of what needs to be done on the Zope book in
 general though.

Well, the chapter-by-chapter editing is still not done.
See http://plope.com/Books/zb_signup for an overview of the known
tasks to be done.

-- 

Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
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Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-08 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Apr 8, 2005 5:59 PM, Paul Winkler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 OK, but there should at least be a pointer to something to read
 for people wanting to get started with 2.8.0/Five.
 I haven't yet looked at any of the Five stuff.
 Is there at least a README? :)

Sure. I don't guarantee that it's remotely relevant, however. :-)

 Well, the chapter-by-chapter editing is still not done.
 See http://plope.com/Books/zb_signup for an overview of the known
 tasks to be done.

OK, but that's better than expected, I'd say. :) It sais Finished on
a whole bunch of chapters.

-- 
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CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-08 Thread Paul Winkler
On Fri, Apr 08, 2005 at 06:06:57PM +0200, Lennart Regebro wrote:
 On Apr 8, 2005 5:59 PM, Paul Winkler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Well, the chapter-by-chapter editing is still not done.
  See http://plope.com/Books/zb_signup for an overview of the known
  tasks to be done.
 
 OK, but that's better than expected, I'd say. :) It sais Finished on
 a whole bunch of chapters.

Yep! But only about half. 
Current stats for anyone who cares:

Finished15
In Progress 12
Not Started 1
Unclaimed   4



-- 

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http://www.slinkp.com
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Re: [Zope] The Zope Book

2005-04-08 Thread Stephan Richter
On Friday 08 April 2005 11:22, Paul Winkler wrote:
 The primary problem with the Zope Book is still the relative scarcity of
 resources (i.e. editors with time to work on it).

 The secondary problem with the Zope Book is that it's showing its age:
 the choice and organization of topics is IMHO less than ideal, but that
 can't be sufficiently addressed on a chapter-by-chapter basis, one needs
 to have a good overview of the whole project.  This vastly increases the
 scope of the task.

Note that my Zope 3 book is published under CC license. I could ask SAMS 
whether it would be okay to include parts (with proper reference and 
copyright notice) in the online version of the Zope 2 book.

That will not document Five, but some of the component architecture.

Regards,
Stephan
-- 
Stephan Richter
CBU Physics  Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student)
Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training
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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Chris McDonough
On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 02:56, Chris Withers wrote:
 Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book?
 It's got a much nicer UI than Zope.org...

Every few weeks or so I go and clean out (sometimes hundreds of) test
and fglrldjksjds and you suck! comments in the BackTalk version of
the book and I'm tremendously thankful at that point that I don't need
to actually read the text to distinguish a comment from a canonical
part of the book, but I still have the comment in-situ to see its
context.

Before the Zope.org transition, I had configured the books to be
commentable only by authenticated users to make inane and content-free
comments harder for people to make, but it still happened.  When the
transition was done, it turned out that authentication was no longer
required, I didn't bother to turn it back on; I figured it's more
important to lower the bar for commenters in order to get the best
feedback possible anyway, so I just go clean it manually every so often
and keep the good parts.  It works pretty well, and I'm pretty happy
with BackTalk for this purpose.

Wikis are great for ad-hoc sorts of things but not so great when it's
useful to maintain a distinct level of separation between reader and
writer.  I can also generate a PDF of the book at will from the BackTalk
version, which I couldn't do (or at least I don't think I could do
easily) with ZWiki.  That said, I think zopewiki.org is a good thing and
I encourage folks to contribute.

If the Zope.org problems persist and I'm unable to find the time to fix
them, I will host the development of the book somewhere else, but it
will almost certainly be hosted with BackTalk.

- C



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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Lennart Regebro
From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book?

It's gonna be hard to get a printable book out of a Wiki...




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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book at ZopeWiki.org

2004-04-22 Thread Stephan Richter
On Thursday 22 April 2004 03:31, Lennart Regebro wrote:
 Today 03:31:57

 From: Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Any chance ZopeWiki.org could become the master location for the book?

 It's gonna be hard to get a printable book out of a Wiki...

I tried this and I can tell you that a Wiki is not the right format for a 
book. While it lowers the entrance points, it is far too simplistic. I 
eventually changed my master to LaTeX, where I can add as much meta-data and 
other markup (especially for an index, which is crucial) easily and then I 
try to create Wiki-friendly STX files from that. 

When people change things in the Wiki, I use the diffs to update the masters. 
This turned out to be a very good move, since sometimes the corrections 
change the meaning of what I intended to say. 

Additionally, I can now always create a beautiful PDF in less than a minute.

Regards,
Stephan
-- 
Stephan Richter
CBU Physics  Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student)
Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training

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Re: [Zope-dev] zope book volunteering

2002-12-11 Thread Chris McDonough
On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 20:14, Chris McDonough wrote:
 Here are the chapters in the 2.6 edition of the Zope Book (
 http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Books/ZopeBook/2_6Edition/index_html )
 that are not yet spoken for:
 
 Maintaining Zope
 Extending Zope (ZClasses)
 Advanced DTML
 Searching and Categorizing Content

Whoops!  I think I made a mistake in the above.  I think Bakhtiar Hamid
picked up Extending Zope (maybe he can speak up if this isn't the case).


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book call for assistance

2002-12-09 Thread Matthew T. Kromer
Jeffrey P Shell wrote:


But SQL Method DTML is very very very very nice.  It has a lot of type 
enforcement/safety measures (ie - autoquoting SQL Strings, ensuring 
that a 'sqlvar type=float' operation is inserting a float); a lot of 
*very* nice features for generating 'where' clauses (the sqltest 
'optional' flag and the smart 'dtml-and and dtml-or' tags that 
won't render if an optional 'sqltest' preceding them was not 
rendered); the 'sqltest multiple' feature is especially nice:

dtml-sqlgroup where
dtml-sqltest foo type=nb multiple optional
/dtml-sqlgroup

If foo is a blank string or empty list, that will render nothing.

If foo is a single string, that renders::

where foo = 'bar'

But if foo is a list of strings, that will render::

where foo in ('bar', 'baz')

Doing that programatically in Python is counterintuitive and awkward 
(just as it was before the specialized 'dtml-sql___' tags in DTML).  
For simple queries, doing it in the host programming language is not 
bad.  But for complex queries, it's very awkward to generate SQL.  
It's almost as bad as generating HTML inside of a programming language 
- it becomes difficult to maintain.


Yes, I think SQL methods are going to stick around.  The downside is 
there are some things that they SHOULD do that they dont, and that DTML 
doesnt (to my knowledge) facilitate.

For example, dtml-sqltest foo type=nb ought to be able to check with 
the underlying DA, and ask that DA to help it format its parameters. 
Currently the render() method used by DTML seems to be presumed to be a 
string, but what you want back is

   (foo=:foo, ('foo',foo))  # or whatever  all this foo foo sounds 
like a poodle

so that any bind variables can be handled more efficiently by the DA. 
Since each DA handles bind variables differently, it has to be involved 
in the process to return a string with substitution text, and the value 
to be substituted later.   The DA's query method currently takes only a 
string, but it should take a string and a concatenation of bind variables.

I remember looking at it and not wanting to get into trying to track 
down where DTML would have to change to allow nonlinear results.

There may well be something in DTML processing that would make this 
simple, I'm not very well versed on DTML processing internals.


--
Matt Kromer
Zope Corporation  http://www.zope.com/ 



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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book call for assistance

2002-12-09 Thread Jeffrey P Shell
On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:11  AM, Tino Wildenhain wrote:


Hi Chris,

--On Freitag, 6. Dezember 2002 21:27 -0500 Chris McDonough 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Fri, 2002-12-06 at 19:13, Tino Wildenhain wrote:

These are exactly the things you shouldn't neither do in DTML
nor in ZPT :-)


What do you suggest people use for a templating language for email,
JavaScript, SQL, etc?  I think it's too much to expect them to use
Python to do this (esp. wrt SQL methods).


Oh, is it? I'd rather like to write %(name)s %(value)d
then dtml-whatever value
Recently I read the python-dbi spec and its very nice to see
what you could do with the above form. There are even
standard ways to do multiple querys or function calls.
(Hope I can contribute a product for this as time permits)


But SQL Method DTML is very very very very nice.  It has a lot of type 
enforcement/safety measures (ie - autoquoting SQL Strings, ensuring 
that a 'sqlvar type=float' operation is inserting a float); a lot of 
*very* nice features for generating 'where' clauses (the sqltest 
'optional' flag and the smart 'dtml-and and dtml-or' tags that 
won't render if an optional 'sqltest' preceding them was not rendered); 
the 'sqltest multiple' feature is especially nice:

dtml-sqlgroup where
dtml-sqltest foo type=nb multiple optional
/dtml-sqlgroup

If foo is a blank string or empty list, that will render nothing.

If foo is a single string, that renders::

where foo = 'bar'

But if foo is a list of strings, that will render::

where foo in ('bar', 'baz')

Doing that programatically in Python is counterintuitive and awkward 
(just as it was before the specialized 'dtml-sql___' tags in DTML).  
For simple queries, doing it in the host programming language is not 
bad.  But for complex queries, it's very awkward to generate SQL.  It's 
almost as bad as generating HTML inside of a programming language - it 
becomes difficult to maintain.

For E-Mail and Javascript templates I also find it less confusing
if I can use %(var)s form.


It's worth noting that there's a little known DTML format that's of 
this style.  Again - when doing simple insertion, %(var)s is not bad.  
But once anything fancy comes into play - conditional insertion, 
looping, etc - maintainability goes out the window when staying in the 
host programming language.  When I was evaluating Roundup 
http://roundup.sf.net, I wanted to generate emails that looked as 
good as the ones generated by Tracker.  I had to write lines and lines 
and lines of Python code to do it in order to replace a subclassed 
method.  There was no template that I could jigger around.  (To be fair 
to Roundup and Tracker both, I think customizing Tracker's email 
messages is even harder).

I wouldn't mind seeing DTML.String re-emerge, which complements the 
Python formatting string with DTML constructs to handle more advanced 
templating needs.  If you took a lot of the programming-language style 
tags (dtml-try, dtml-return) out of DTML and normalized the expression 
system (ie - to use TALES), you'd have a very usable system.  The core 
design concepts of DTML are good, it's just corrupted itself over the 
years by stepping out of the plain-text templating language domain and 
straddling the templating/programming language domains.  DTML is even 
used to generate DTML, by using the Extended Python Format String 
syntax.  This is how the 'Z Search Interface' custom reports are 
generated.


As a general solution for texts one can use file which has an edit
tab for several releases of zope now. Then use it like this:

context.thefile.read() % context.REQUEST.form

or whatever seems appropriate to get values from.

E-Mail even gets clearer with the solution since you can easyly
loop and do whatever instead of multiple dtml-sendmail tags.


Life would be so much better if odd tags like dtml-sendmail could 
just go away, and instead we had 'SMTP Methods' or something like that 
- mail specific templates that are bound to a mailhost, with special 
DTML tags (like the mime tag), similar to SQL Methods.

I love the SQL Method specific DTML tags.  They make writing dynamic 
SQL statements so easy, especially when compared to _any_ other system 
that I've seen.  It's a good showcase for DTML's ability to turn into a 
domain specific templating language.

Regards
Tino



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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book call for assistance

2002-12-09 Thread Allen Schmidt
DTML needs to be given the same amount of attention as it always has. For
some bizarre reason, DTML makes sense in my headeven complicated
logic... Doctor! Do I need help?

It's one of the reasons I really liked Zope three years ago when starting
with it The tag structure just made sense and was similar to a tool I
used to get database calls and logic on a web page...

Long live DTML!!


- Original Message -
From: Chris McDonough [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tino Wildenhain [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book call for assistance


  erm... would advanced DTML not be the short sentence:
  avoid DTML where you can? ;)

 That'd be ok, except that DTML can of course do things that ZPT can't,
 yada yada yada.

  Btw. did you think of putting the whole DTML stuff at the end for
  reference only to help migrating old products and turn the
  whole thing a bit around so beginners get a clear path of
  Zope development? I found it a bit confusing when I edited
  the german translation of the 2.3 book a year ago.

 That's probably a good idea.  But I think the rewritten chapters explain
 when to use ZPT and when to use DTML.  And DTML still needs to be given
 some attention for the reason I say above...

 - C



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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book call for assistance

2002-12-07 Thread Tino Wildenhain
Hi Chris,

--On Freitag, 6. Dezember 2002 21:27 -0500 Chris McDonough 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Fri, 2002-12-06 at 19:13, Tino Wildenhain wrote:

These are exactly the things you shouldn't neither do in DTML
nor in ZPT :-)


What do you suggest people use for a templating language for email,
JavaScript, SQL, etc?  I think it's too much to expect them to use
Python to do this (esp. wrt SQL methods).


Oh, is it? I'd rather like to write %(name)s %(value)d
then dtml-whatever value
Recently I read the python-dbi spec and its very nice to see
what you could do with the above form. There are even
standard ways to do multiple querys or function calls.
(Hope I can contribute a product for this as time permits)

For E-Mail and Javascript templates I also find it less confusing
if I can use %(var)s form.

As a general solution for texts one can use file which has an edit
tab for several releases of zope now. Then use it like this:

context.thefile.read() % context.REQUEST.form

or whatever seems appropriate to get values from.

E-Mail even gets clearer with the solution since you can easyly
loop and do whatever instead of multiple dtml-sendmail tags.

Regards
Tino



I'd start the lessons with ZPT to only show static content
and may be macros.
Then the logical order would be introduction to python
scripts without HTML output - only show how they are
used to calculate and output simple values, lists,
dictionaries and so on.
Next chapter should show how one uses the scripts with
ZPT to provide output into HTML.
Then the usual things like Catalog, ZSQL, important
API parts, etc.

Don't you think this would be clearer for the beginner?


Sure.  I'd love to rewrite the entirety of the Zope Book.  But please
notice that I'm asking for help finishing the existing chapters, so I
don't think this is a realistic goal.

- C






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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book call for assistance

2002-12-07 Thread Chris McDonough
On Sat, 2002-12-07 at 06:11, Tino Wildenhain wrote:
 Hi Chris,
 
 --On Freitag, 6. Dezember 2002 21:27 -0500 Chris McDonough 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Fri, 2002-12-06 at 19:13, Tino Wildenhain wrote:
  These are exactly the things you shouldn't neither do in DTML
  nor in ZPT :-)
 
  What do you suggest people use for a templating language for email,
  JavaScript, SQL, etc?  I think it's too much to expect them to use
  Python to do this (esp. wrt SQL methods).
 
 Oh, is it? I'd rather like to write %(name)s %(value)d
 then dtml-whatever value
 Recently I read the python-dbi spec and its very nice to see
 what you could do with the above form. There are even
 standard ways to do multiple querys or function calls.
 (Hope I can contribute a product for this as time permits)
 
 For E-Mail and Javascript templates I also find it less confusing
 if I can use %(var)s form.
 
 As a general solution for texts one can use file which has an edit
 tab for several releases of zope now. Then use it like this:
 
 context.thefile.read() % context.REQUEST.form
 
 or whatever seems appropriate to get values from.
 
 E-Mail even gets clearer with the solution since you can easyly
 loop and do whatever instead of multiple dtml-sendmail tags.

The solution then would be to write several new chapters that talk about
how to do this.

- C



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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book call for assistance

2002-12-06 Thread Tino Wildenhain
Hi,

--On Donnerstag, 5. Dezember 2002 23:20 -0500 Chris McDonough 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


...

Advanced DTML:

http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Books/ZopeBook/2_6Edition/AdvDTML.stx




erm... would advanced DTML not be the short sentence:
avoid DTML where you can? ;)

Btw. did you think of putting the whole DTML stuff at the end for
reference only to help migrating old products and turn the
whole thing a bit around so beginners get a clear path of
Zope development? I found it a bit confusing when I edited
the german translation of the 2.3 book a year ago.

Regards
Tino

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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book call for assistance

2002-12-06 Thread Chris McDonough
 erm... would advanced DTML not be the short sentence:
 avoid DTML where you can? ;)

That'd be ok, except that DTML can of course do things that ZPT can't,
yada yada yada.

 Btw. did you think of putting the whole DTML stuff at the end for
 reference only to help migrating old products and turn the
 whole thing a bit around so beginners get a clear path of
 Zope development? I found it a bit confusing when I edited
 the german translation of the 2.3 book a year ago.

That's probably a good idea.  But I think the rewritten chapters explain
when to use ZPT and when to use DTML.  And DTML still needs to be given
some attention for the reason I say above...

- C



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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book call for assistance

2002-12-06 Thread Tino Wildenhain
Hi Chris,

--On Freitag, 6. Dezember 2002 09:50 -0500 Chris McDonough 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

erm... would advanced DTML not be the short sentence:
avoid DTML where you can? ;)


That'd be ok, except that DTML can of course do things that ZPT can't,
yada yada yada.


These are exactly the things you shouldn't neither do in DTML
nor in ZPT :-)

I'd start the lessons with ZPT to only show static content
and may be macros.
Then the logical order would be introduction to python
scripts without HTML output - only show how they are
used to calculate and output simple values, lists,
dictionaries and so on.
Next chapter should show how one uses the scripts with
ZPT to provide output into HTML.
Then the usual things like Catalog, ZSQL, important
API parts, etc.

Don't you think this would be clearer for the beginner?

Regards
Tino




Btw. did you think of putting the whole DTML stuff at the end for
reference only to help migrating old products and turn the
whole thing a bit around so beginners get a clear path of
Zope development? I found it a bit confusing when I edited
the german translation of the 2.3 book a year ago.


That's probably a good idea.  But I think the rewritten chapters explain
when to use ZPT and when to use DTML.  And DTML still needs to be given
some attention for the reason I say above...

- C






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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book call for assistance

2002-12-06 Thread Chris McDonough
On Fri, 2002-12-06 at 19:13, Tino Wildenhain wrote:
 These are exactly the things you shouldn't neither do in DTML
 nor in ZPT :-)

What do you suggest people use for a templating language for email,
JavaScript, SQL, etc?  I think it's too much to expect them to use
Python to do this (esp. wrt SQL methods).

 I'd start the lessons with ZPT to only show static content
 and may be macros.
 Then the logical order would be introduction to python
 scripts without HTML output - only show how they are
 used to calculate and output simple values, lists,
 dictionaries and so on.
 Next chapter should show how one uses the scripts with
 ZPT to provide output into HTML.
 Then the usual things like Catalog, ZSQL, important
 API parts, etc.
 
 Don't you think this would be clearer for the beginner?

Sure.  I'd love to rewrite the entirety of the Zope Book.  But please
notice that I'm asking for help finishing the existing chapters, so I
don't think this is a realistic goal.

- C



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Re: [Zope-dev] Zope Book Question: 'context' doesn't work in PythonMethods

2000-11-20 Thread Ken Manheimer

On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Shane Hathaway wrote:

 They are using an unreleased version of the Python Methods product. 
 AFAIK the only thing holding up the release of the new Python Methods is
 the renaming.

(I believe the version in question is available from the public CVS
repository, as the Products/DC/PythonMethod module.)

(Ken)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Zope] OT Zope book images - PDF

2000-11-01 Thread Phil Harris

Eric,

I got Acrobat to recognise the png's by first loading the html nto msword
and then 'printing' the PDF from there.

hth

Phil

- Original Message -
From: "Eric Walstad" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 12:58 AM
Subject: [Zope] OT Zope book images - PDF


| In light of all the hubbub about the Zope book, I thought I would try and
| make my own copy of it in PDF format (just for me, of course).  I'm
finding
| that Acrobat doesn't know how to convert the PNG image file type used in
the
| Zope Book.  (or rather, I don't know how to get it to work !)  Anyone know
| how to get png files into Acrobat?  Oh, I'm trying to use their 'Open Web
| Page' method of creating the document.  Is there another/better way that
| will get the png images?
| Thanks,
| Eric.
|
|
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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta

2000-10-31 Thread Wolfgang Strobl

On 31 Oct 2000, at 10:39, Amos Latteier wrote:

 I believe that O'Reilly doesn't want the book redistributed before it is
 printed. 

It's gone.

 I'll recheck with them. 

No need to.

But what is the meaning of This is the one to print out and give to 
your friends as christmas gifts, folks, so get crackin and start 
reading at." in the announcement?


Take a look at the copyright stuff info
 on each page. 

 didn't restribute it, I uploaded the same content in a different 
format to the very same site I got it from: www.zope.org.


-- 
Wolfgang Strobl

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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta

2000-10-31 Thread Michel Pelletier

Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
 
 On 31 Oct 2000, at 10:39, Amos Latteier wrote:
 
  I believe that O'Reilly doesn't want the book redistributed before it is
  printed.
 
 It's gone.
 
  I'll recheck with them.
 
 No need to.
 
 But what is the meaning of This is the one to print out and give to
 your friends as christmas gifts, folks, so get crackin and start
 reading at." in the announcement?

That was a joke.  Sorry.

-Michel

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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta

2000-10-31 Thread Wolfgang Strobl

On 31 Oct 2000, at 12:54, Michel Pelletier wrote:

 That was a joke.  Sorry.

Uh, oh.  Well, my thought was as follows: people are already 
annoucing making PDF versions, which are a much greater 
potential harm to to the number of sales of a printed book.With a 
good pdf file, I can get to my local prinshop and get a perfect 
bounded book back within half an hour.

On the other hand, a MS HTML help file is of little use other than 
having a compact, searchable file which fits well into a 
development environment on Windows. Frankly, I can't see how 
these could do any harm to selling your book. To the contrary; I 
tend to beleive that having a properly indexed and tightly 
integrated online format might even might help selling the book. 

For example; I have HTML help versions _and_ printed copies of 
the - outdated - Zope docs, and one of each from the actual 
howto-collection, and I'm using them both. 

-- 
Wolfgang Strobl

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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta

2000-10-31 Thread Phil Harris

Hi all,

If your talking about me with the PDF and eBook, then if it's a problem I
won't redistribute it.

It's actually sitting on my machine waiting to go, but I'll hold if need be.

Let me know either way.

hth

Phil


- Original Message -
From: "Wolfgang Strobl" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "Amos Latteier" [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta


| On 31 Oct 2000, at 12:54, Michel Pelletier wrote:
|
|  That was a joke.  Sorry.
|
| Uh, oh.  Well, my thought was as follows: people are already
| annoucing making PDF versions, which are a much greater
| potential harm to to the number of sales of a printed book.With a
| good pdf file, I can get to my local prinshop and get a perfect
| bounded book back within half an hour.
|
| On the other hand, a MS HTML help file is of little use other than
| having a compact, searchable file which fits well into a
| development environment on Windows. Frankly, I can't see how
| these could do any harm to selling your book. To the contrary; I
| tend to beleive that having a properly indexed and tightly
| integrated online format might even might help selling the book.
|
| For example; I have HTML help versions _and_ printed copies of
| the - outdated - Zope docs, and one of each from the actual
| howto-collection, and I'm using them both.
|
| --
| Wolfgang Strobl
|
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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta

2000-10-31 Thread Dennis Nichols

At 10/31/00 11:08 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
For example; I have HTML help versions _and_ printed copies of
the - outdated - Zope docs, and one of each from the actual
howto-collection, and I'm using them both.

Wolfgang - How about putting up your HTML help version of the 
howto-collection? That would be very cool. Thanks!

--
Dennis Nichols
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta

2000-10-31 Thread Jeff Hoffman

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

 On 31 Oct 2000, at 12:54, Michel Pelletier wrote:
 
  That was a joke.  Sorry.
 
 Uh, oh.  Well, my thought was as follows: people are already 
 annoucing making PDF versions, which are a much greater 
 potential harm to to the number of sales of a printed book.With a 
 good pdf file, I can get to my local prinshop and get a perfect 
 bounded book back within half an hour.
 
 On the other hand, a MS HTML help file is of little use other than 
 having a compact, searchable file which fits well into a 
 development environment on Windows. Frankly, I can't see how 
 these could do any harm to selling your book. To the contrary; I 
 tend to beleive that having a properly indexed and tightly 
 integrated online format might even might help selling the book. 

I certainly can't speak for O'Rielly, but I can take a guess at their
logic. It goes something like this:

If people begin reproducing copies of the book, in PDF, HTML Help,
whatever form, and distributing it, they will soon be all over the net.
It is not in its finished form. It may have misspellings, or technical
errors that will (hopefully) be corrected before publication.

When the final version comes out, will they be able to guarantee that all
old copies of the book are updated with the final version? If someone
downloads a copy with a lot of errors, and gets a bad impression of the
book, is that fair to O'Reilly, given that it was not the final version
they were looking at?

If we simply wait until its final before reproducing it, this becomes much
easier to manage.

At least, that's my $0.02.

 Wolfgang Strobl

--Jeff

---
Jeff K. Hoffman   704.849.0731 x108
Chief Technology Officer  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Going Virtual, L.L.C. http://www.goingv.com/


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