Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-08 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Apr 8, 2005 12:15 AM, Andreas Pakulat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, could you (just for my own interest) point out the difference between PropertySheets and ProperyManager (which I used to define properies for my own product-classes)? IIRC PropertySheets allow to have multiple groups of

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Jim Fulton
Jim Fulton wrote: Jake wrote: My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses I doubt that that is the case. Sorry, I missread your note. I meant to say that I was sure you are *not* the only one using ZClasses. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Stephan Richter
On Wednesday 06 April 2005 16:52, Dieter Maurer wrote: For new projects, you should investigate the new options. Product development will get much simpler with Zope3 technology (and its schemas and views). Currently, there is no TTW (Through The Web) development in Zope3 land, but that is

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Yuri
Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: zope@zope.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jonathan Cyr wrote at 2005-4-6 16:06 -0400: ... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate Zope

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Jonathan Cyr
Thank You for giving me a timeframe for this stuff. 4 to 6 years is indeed a long time. That would, in effect triple the lifespan of my project, and be far more reasonable. It was the "yeah, dump it today" remarks that set me off. These remarks are shortsighted at best, and harmful to Zope's

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Dieter Maurer
Yuri wrote at 2005-4-7 14:30 +0200: ... Isn't Archetypes only for Plone? No, it can be used with pure CMF... ... if one is ready to fix a few Plone dependencies that creep in in most Archetype releases. ... Just release a way to convert a Zclass to a Python Product (at least for the

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Andreas Pakulat
On 07.Apr 2005 - 20:13:58, Dieter Maurer wrote: Yuri wrote at 2005-4-7 14:30 +0200: ... Isn't Archetypes only for Plone? No, it can be used with pure CMF... ... if one is ready to fix a few Plone dependencies that creep in in most Archetype releases. ... Just release a way to

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Ausum Studio
- Original Message - From: Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] (...) I submitted a patch to the Zope collector but I had removed one bit of black magic too much -- and other products broke that were dependent on this magic. My patch which were already integrated into the Zope

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Sascha Welter
(Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 06:46:23PM -0400) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote/schrieb/egrapse: From: Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book. Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which does not yet feature at all in the Zope book). I

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
On Apr 6, 2005, at 6:59, Andreas Jung wrote: --On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer. We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then they should take over some

RE: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Pascal Peregrina
PROTECTED] la part de Sascha Welter Envoyé : mercredi 6 avril 2005 09:44 À : zope@zope.org Objet : Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? (Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 06:46:23PM -0400) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote/schrieb/egrapse: From: Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ZClasses feature

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Lennart Regebro
I don't know if I'm living under a rock or something, but I'm using Zope on and off since about 2.5.1, and I've barely heard about archetypes. So far I did not come across a simple introduction, tutorial, or even explanation of them. The new stuff mentioned on this thread is the zope 3

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Ausum Studio
, 2005 11:59 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Mittwoch, 6. April 2005 12:59 Uhr -0500 Ausum Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this a kafkanian situation? Are really core developers asking the community to kick a used Zope's feature, saying it's because it's hard to maintain it, and simultaneously to say it's code 'unmaintained and

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Jonathan Cyr
Yoohoo, ZClasses are not an expert technology to use, they are an introduction to Zope... Just because I use a thing, doesn't mean I can support/maintain a thing. I can read the list, and try to help folks with questions that I've experienced... that's the support that can be offered at my

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Mittwoch, 6. April 2005 16:06 Uhr -0400 Jonathan Cyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yoohoo, ZClasses are not an expert technology to use, they are an introduction to Zope... Just because I use a thing, doesn't mean I can support/maintain a thing. I can read the list, and try to help folks with

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Dieter Maurer
Jonathan Cyr wrote at 2005-4-6 16:06 -0400: ... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed, and the horse I rode in on. Do not

RE: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Arenz, Ralph
SOS This would mean a disaster for us. We've created a lot products using ZClasses in production environment (internet,intranet,eai and so on) since zope-2.1.4. In short our complete developement in Zope is heavily based on ZClasses. We plan to use ZClasses in the future, too. For us ZClasses

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Garito
Arenz, Ralph escribió: SOS This would mean a disaster for us. We've created a lot products using ZClasses in production environment (internet,intranet,eai and so on) since zope-2.1.4. In short our complete developement in Zope is heavily based on ZClasses. We plan to use ZClasses in the future,

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Lennart Regebro
On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to support an old non-recommended one. :-) Anyway, my main question is: You who are using ZClasses,

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Jake
Lennart Regebro said: Anyway, my main question is: You who are using ZClasses, can't you just stay on Zope2.8 or 2.9, if Zope 2.10 would not contain ZClass support? That is possible, but it would be nice to be able to transition out of ZClasses through 2.8 - 2.9 - 2.10 as opposed to there

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Dieter Maurer
Lennart Regebro wrote at 2005-4-5 11:48 +0200: On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to support an old non-recommended one. :-) ZClasses

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Jake
And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer. Until the documentation has caught up to the new features, it seems a bit ahead of schedule to start dropping support for them. Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Dieter Maurer said: Lennart Regebro wrote at 2005-4-5 11:48

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer. We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then they should take over some responsibility in maintaining them in future releases.

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Yuri
Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to convert a zclass based on catagaware to one based on catalogPATHaware, or merge the two. Or you just deprecate something that is used and don't deprecate some code that

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Montag, 4. April 2005 9:58 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to convert a zclass based on catagaware to one based on catalogPATHaware, or merge the two. This would

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Yuri
Andreas Jung ha scritto: --On Montag, 4. April 2005 9:58 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to convert a zclass based on catagaware to one based on catalogPATHaware, or

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Montag, 4. April 2005 10:23 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andreas Jung ha scritto: --On Montag, 4. April 2005 9:58 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Chris Withers
Well, you know what I'm gonna say... +1 for their demise. +1 for DTML going too, oops, wait, Andreas said not to bring that up ;-) cheers, Chris Jim Fulton wrote: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Garito
Chris Withers escribió: Well, you know what I'm gonna say... +1 for their demise. +1 for DTML going too, oops, wait, Andreas said not to bring that up ;-) cheers, Chris Jim Fulton wrote: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread AM Thomas
I agree that ZClasses are not good to use. However, I have a product based on ZClasses that I wrote several years ago (after reading the printed Zope book - doh!), and it's working well for several of my clients. If future versions of Zope were to not support it, that would be a huge problem

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Garito
AM Thomas escribió: I agree that ZClasses are not good to use. However, I have a product based on ZClasses that I wrote several years ago (after reading the printed Zope book - doh!), and it's working well for several of my clients. If future versions of Zope were to not support it, that

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Apr 4, 2005 5:14 PM, Garito [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps will be a good choice to make ZClasses as an installable product (I don't know if this is possible or not Sure it is, but the problem is that supporting it in future versions of Zope very well may need changes in Zope itself.

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-03 Thread Garito
Jim Fulton escribió: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially revision control systems like CVS and

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-03 Thread Dennis Allison
On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Garito wrote: My +1 for ZClasses deprecation And +1 for DTML deprecation Try to keep Zope simple -1 for DTML deprecation. It serves a different purpose that ZPT-- DTML is Logic+HTML ZPT is HTML+Logic.

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-03 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Sonntag, 3. April 2005 14:57 Uhr +0200 Garito [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And +1 for DTML deprecation Deprecating DTML was never an issue. So stop the discussion about DTML. We're talking about ZClasses. -aj pgp0r7S8eJ6rx.pgp Description: PGP signature

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-03 Thread Dieter Maurer
Andreas Jung wrote at 2005-4-2 08:58 +0200: --On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:52 Uhr -0500 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to support them as legacy into 3/2.10? To avoid that people use ZClasses in the future :-) ZClasses have a set

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-03 Thread Jim Fulton
Jake wrote: My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses I doubt that that is the case. is, why not support them? You listed out the reasons why someone wouldn't want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to support them as legacy into 3/2.10? Are

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Dennis Allison
+1 for deprecation. On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Jim Fulton wrote: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant deficiencies, including: - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially

RE: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Ben Mason
And another +1 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Allison Sent: 01 April 2005 15:44 To: Jim Fulton Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? +1 for deprecation. On Fri, 1

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread bruno modulix
Jim Fulton wrote: (snip) Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? ZClasses ? What are ZClasses ? (Sorry, couldn't resist. +1 for deprecation) -- Bruno Desthuilliers Développeur [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Allen Schmidt
-l for deprecation ...until we build a replacement anyway... Dennis Allison wrote: +1 for deprecation. On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Jim Fulton wrote: ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development. Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some significant

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread kosh
I vote we take off and nuke them from orbit it is the only way to be sure. (+1 get rid of those dang things) I have tried to help far too many people over the years on #zope that had problems with zclasses. They just seem fragile and should be removed. On Friday 01 April 2005 5:22 am, Jim

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jim Fulton
Allen Schmidt wrote: -l for deprecation ...until we build a replacement anyway... What do you mean by replacement? In Zope 3, I plan to provide persistent modules to support prototying new applications through the web. It will be possible to automatically convert these to file-system-based

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jake
As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across 10 different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not happy to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come. If they are supported in 2.8 - 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok. Again, it is

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jim Fulton
Jake wrote: As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across 10 different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not happy to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come. If they are supported in 2.8 - 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok. If

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Paul Winkler
+1 for deprecation. However, I haven't used them for years. I suspect you will hear otherwise from some people with currently deployed solutions based on ZClasses... (cue Dieter) -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope maillist -

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 7:22 Uhr -0500 Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? +2 to

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jake
My vote is to keep them around for 2.8 and 2.9 but say goodbye after that. Again.. it won't be easy for us, but who said progress ever was. Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Jim Fulton said: Jake wrote: As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across 10 different

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Lennart Regebro
+1 on deprecation. (As for replacements, persistent schemas in Zope3 will enable the thing that ZClasses should have been: Combining a set of base classes with functionality with a TTW editable schema. CPSschemas is halfway there: You can make your own content classes already, but you can't

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Ira Sher
I can understand wanting to deprecate them, but I have to say, as the maintainer of a site written by someone else about six years ago in zope 1 days, that this would be a mess to migrate and require a total site rewrite. The client is unfortuneatly a non-profit mid-sized independent press, and

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Dieter Maurer
Jim Fulton wrote at 2005-4-1 07:22 -0500: ... We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset if this happened? We use ZClasses for several

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Ausum Studio
@zope.org Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? My vote is to keep them around for 2.8 and 2.9 but say goodbye after that. Again.. it won't be easy for us, but who said progress ever was. Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Jim

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jonathan Cyr
Big mistake, IMHO, You have no replacement for intermediate developers... the only decent documentation, being the various books, have ZClasses throughout. Explain their absence to the newbies grokking for Zope enlightenment. Not everyone needs/wants development tools, some like the TTW

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jake
My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses is, why not support them? You listed out the reasons why someone wouldn't want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to support them as legacy into 3/2.10? Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Dieter

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:21 Uhr -0500 Ausum Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whether there already is a tool like that in ZopeLand, I would agree to its deprecation, but actually there's nothing like it. Certainly ZClasses is not what it promised to be, but what it does do, it does it

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:52 Uhr -0500 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to support them as legacy into 3/2.10? To avoid that people use ZClasses in the future :-) -aj pgpNlVUdoEQdZ.pgp Description: PGP signature

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread David H
Andreas Jung wrote: --On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:52 Uhr -0500 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to support them as legacy into 3/2.10? To avoid that people use ZClasses in the future :-) -aj

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Andreas Jung
--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 23:10 Uhr -0800 David H [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would recommend ZClass people should form a group. And have good people keep the thing compatible with each Zope release. David I doubt that anyone will touch ZClasses - except Dieter and Jim :-) It's good to see