Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-08 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Apr 8, 2005 12:15 AM, Andreas Pakulat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hmm, could you (just for my own interest) point out the difference
 between PropertySheets and ProperyManager (which I used to define
 properies for my own product-classes)? IIRC PropertySheets allow to
 have multiple groups of properties on the same Object, but is there
 more?

If I remember correctly, it also allows you do have the property
definition stored somewhere else than on the object itself, and is
allows you to store the properties somewhere else than as attributes.

It's a bit complex to use, and the property types definitions are too
inflexible for practical use, which is why archetypes, CPSSchemas and
Zope3 schemas exists now. :-)
-- 
Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Jim Fulton
Jim Fulton wrote:
Jake wrote:
My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses

I doubt that that is the case.
Sorry, I missread your note.  I meant to say that I was
sure you are *not* the only one using ZClasses.
Jim
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Stephan Richter
On Wednesday 06 April 2005 16:52, Dieter Maurer wrote:
 For new projects, you should investigate the new options.
 Product development will get much simpler with Zope3 technology
 (and its schemas and views). Currently, there is no TTW
 (Through The Web) development in Zope3 land, but that is planned.
 In about 2 to 4 years, we may have new ZClass like
 functionality implemented with Zope3 technology.
 And I am quite confident that the old ZClasses will live til
 then...

Note that I prototyped such functionality a couple years ago. One could create 
TTW (Persistent) schemas and then declare a Content Component Definition 
based on this schema. People could then create instances of those content 
components. The Content Component Definition utility took care of doing all 
the security and basic menu/view setup. One can then write views and adapters 
for the content component to give it functionality.

Unfortunately, persistent schemas got broken at some point, so the code is not 
that useful anymore. I really need to get together with Jim and force him to 
fix the problem with me, since I constantly forget what the problem is. ;-)

Regards,
Stephan
-- 
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CBU Physics  Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student)
Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Yuri

Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses? To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: zope@zope.org Message-ID: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: 
text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jonathan Cyr wrote at 2005-4-6 16:06 -0400:

... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate 
Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't 
any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed, 
and the horse I rode in on.
   

Do not worry too much!
Jim proposed to keep ZClasses alive until (at least) Zope 2.10.
And he asks whether there is enough interest to keep them longer...
 

[...]
In fact, I have had ten times more problems with Archetypes (which
I use now) than with ZClasses (which I used formerly).
Isn't Archetypes only for Plone?
I mean, Plone is a very good *application* but I don't want to be 
locked on it.

Just release a way to convert a Zclass to a Python Product (at least 
for the simplest ZClasses...).

I'm stil stuck on convert that damn base class CatalogAware to 
CatalogPathAware, just to name something (CatalogAware) which is still 
there for no reason... :)
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Jonathan Cyr




Thank You for giving me a
timeframe for this stuff. 4 to 6 years is indeed a long time. That
would, in effect triple the lifespan of my project, and be far more
reasonable.

It was the "yeah, dump it today" remarks that set me off. These
remarks are shortsighted at best, and harmful to Zope's PR at worst.

Thanks for the response, I will contribute where I can.

-Jon







Dieter Maurer wrote:

  Jonathan Cyr wrote at 2005-4-6 16:06 -0400:
  
  
... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate 
Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't 
any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed, 
and the horse I rode in on.

  
  
Do not worry too much!

Jim proposed to keep ZClasses alive until (at least) Zope 2.10.
And he asks whether there is enough interest to keep them longer...

If the Zope 2 releases progress in the same speed seen recently,
then Zope 2.10 will come in 4 to 6 years. That's a lot of time.
Of course, it is planned that future release cycles are much shorter
(one release every 6 months) but I do not yet buy that this will
indeed happen. Almost all releases were planned much earlier
than they happened.


And, we can keep ZClasses alive, at least until the next major
"Persistency" shakeup (after Jim made them working again for
the current "Persistency" shakeup) -- even when they are no longer
in the core.


In fact, I have had ten times more problems with Archetypes (which
I use now) than with ZClasses (which I used formerly).
It is true (and sad) that there are no unit tests for ZClasses
but ZClasses just broke twice in the past across releases
and the community quickly found
workarounds. These fixes were found much faster than those
for the security problems which were introduced from time to
time into Zope through security shakeups -- despite the fact
that there are unit tests for the security subsystem.


Thus, the right approach (in my view) is that all users
of ZClasses tell Jim, that ZClasses are used and interesting.
ZClasses may nevertheless get deprecated but probably kept
longer then Zope 2.10 unless they cause major problems.


For new projects, you should investigate the new options.
Product development will get much simpler with Zope3 technology
(and its schemas and views). Currently, there is no TTW
("Through The Web") development in Zope3 land, but that is planned.
In about 2 to 4 years, we may have new ZClass like
functionality implemented with Zope3 technology.
And I am quite confident that the old ZClasses will live til
then...


  
  
And so here's the confession... "Hello, I'm Jon... I've used Zope for 2 
years, and I can't help others program high-level Python OOP 
tools/platform resources in a propriety web content management server.  
I only can support their efforts when the occasional mailing list 
opportunities present themselves."

  
  
That's fine. Continue with this support!


Do not worry too much about ZClasses. They will stay
for a significant time because Jim plans to take the next
major hurdle (thank you, Jim!).
After that, probably only small changes will
be necessary -- as in the past. We, the ZClass users, can
manage these minor changes -- as we did in the past.

  



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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Dieter Maurer
Yuri wrote at 2005-4-7 14:30 +0200:
 ...
 Isn't Archetypes only for Plone?

No, it can be used with pure CMF...
... if one is ready to fix a few Plone dependencies that creep
in in most Archetype releases.

 ...
 Just release a way to convert a Zclass to a Python Product (at least 
for the simplest ZClasses...).

Unfortunaltely, even the most elementary things are missing:

  PropertySheet are one of the most essential parts of ZClasses --
  and they can be extended later and all ZInstances see the changes.

  PropertySheets are available for non ZClasses as well.
  But, this code is even less maintained than ZClasses and
  utterly broken.
  
  When I used them for a Python product, I had to fight for two
  days and had to heavily modify Zope code to get them working.

  I submitted a patch to the Zope collector but I had removed
  one bit of black magic too much -- and other products broke that
  were dependent on this magic.
  My patch which were already integrated into the Zope sources
  were reverted and never considered again (though I provided a
  correction)
  Thus, PropertySheets are still utterly broken (outside of
  our private Zope copy).

 I'm stil stuck on convert that damn base class CatalogAware to 
CatalogPathAware, just to name something (CatalogAware) which is still 
there for no reason... :)

One of my first steps in Zope land was to put Zope
in cvs and fix whatever I considered broken.

Maintaining one's private Zope version in a revision control
system allows to fix bugs without loosing the ability to
upgrade to new public versions (and semi automatically
have the own modifications merged in).


-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Andreas Pakulat
On 07.Apr 2005 - 20:13:58, Dieter Maurer wrote:
 Yuri wrote at 2005-4-7 14:30 +0200:
  ...
  Isn't Archetypes only for Plone?
 
 No, it can be used with pure CMF...
 ... if one is ready to fix a few Plone dependencies that creep
 in in most Archetype releases.
 
  ...
  Just release a way to convert a Zclass to a Python Product (at least 
 for the simplest ZClasses...).
 
 Unfortunaltely, even the most elementary things are missing:
 
   PropertySheet are one of the most essential parts of ZClasses --
   and they can be extended later and all ZInstances see the changes.
 
   PropertySheets are available for non ZClasses as well.
   But, this code is even less maintained than ZClasses and
   utterly broken.

Hmm, could you (just for my own interest) point out the difference
between PropertySheets and ProperyManager (which I used to define
properies for my own product-classes)? IIRC PropertySheets allow to
have multiple groups of properties on the same Object, but is there
more?

Andreas

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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-07 Thread Ausum Studio
- Original Message - 
From: Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(...)
   I submitted a patch to the Zope collector but I had removed
   one bit of black magic too much -- and other products broke that
   were dependent on this magic.
   My patch which were already integrated into the Zope sources
   were reverted and never considered again (though I provided a
   correction)
   Thus, PropertySheets are still utterly broken (outside of
   our private Zope copy).

If that's what it takes to try a ZClasses-PythonProduct converter, then my
logic tells me core maintainers should allow that patch to find it's way to
the official release.
Did I miss something regarding the calls to help? Because if that happens to
Dieter's willingness, then what would happen to ours?  ;)


Ausum
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Sascha Welter
(Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 06:46:23PM -0400) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote/schrieb/egrapse:
 From: Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book.
 
 Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which
 does not yet feature at all in the Zope book).

I don't know if I'm living under a rock or something, but I'm using Zope
on and off since about 2.5.1, and I've barely heard about archetypes.
So far I did not come across a simple introduction, tutorial,
or even explanation of them. Of course I haven't searched, but I guess
that is the point of Dieters remark. ZClasses, external methods and to 
some extend Python products byte you the moment you get to the Zope
documentation. 

The new stuff is that stuff I hear the buzzwords flying around, but
once I touch something of it, I'm lost pretty fast.

If something is the new and recommended way of doing things, it should
be first place in the docs. The Zope Bible has Python products before
other stuff IIRC, good. If the new stuff is so great and easy to use, 
it should also be easy to put some documentation of it in Chapter 2 or
3 of whatever the Zope Docs will be.

As for the question of depreciating ZClasses: 
I had started out with ZClasses once, got to know the limitations and am
now doing Python products. I've learned a lot using ZClasses, as one can
jumble and play around with object orientation much easier. Python
products offer a much steeper wall, there is much more that has to be
just right just to get started. So if the new stuff offers that
easy intro playground and has adequate docs, then replace ZClasses.

And btw, keep up the good work, thanks!

Sascha

-- 
http://betabug.ch/blogs/ch-athens

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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
On Apr 6, 2005, at 6:59, Andreas Jung wrote:

--On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around 
longer.
We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then 
they should
take over some responsibility in maintaining them in future releases. 
It can not be
that a feature regarded as obsolete (from the majority) and almost 
unmaintained and
untouched since  ages holds up further releases.
Amen. Actually, instead of maintaining them in the core the current 
users should immediately look at breaking it out of the core into a 
separate product, as suggested earlier, and maintain that product. I 
believe that would make it simpler both from a Zope maintainer 
perspective as well as from the ZClass maintainers' perspective.

jens
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RE: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Pascal Peregrina
About archetypes...

Documentation http://plone.org/documentation/archetypes

Nice presentation (in French) :
http://lsm2004.abul.org/IMG/pdf/slides_-_zope_archetypes_-_Gilles_Lenfant_.p
df
(look at the links on page 35)

Pascal

-Message d'origine-
De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] la part de
Sascha Welter
Envoyé : mercredi 6 avril 2005 09:44
À : zope@zope.org
Objet : Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?


(Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 06:46:23PM -0400) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote/schrieb/egrapse:
 From: Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book.
 
 Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which
 does not yet feature at all in the Zope book).

I don't know if I'm living under a rock or something, but I'm using Zope
on and off since about 2.5.1, and I've barely heard about archetypes.
So far I did not come across a simple introduction, tutorial,
or even explanation of them. Of course I haven't searched, but I guess
that is the point of Dieters remark. ZClasses, external methods and to 
some extend Python products byte you the moment you get to the Zope
documentation. 

The new stuff is that stuff I hear the buzzwords flying around, but
once I touch something of it, I'm lost pretty fast.

If something is the new and recommended way of doing things, it should
be first place in the docs. The Zope Bible has Python products before
other stuff IIRC, good. If the new stuff is so great and easy to use, 
it should also be easy to put some documentation of it in Chapter 2 or
3 of whatever the Zope Docs will be.

As for the question of depreciating ZClasses: 
I had started out with ZClasses once, got to know the limitations and am
now doing Python products. I've learned a lot using ZClasses, as one can
jumble and play around with object orientation much easier. Python
products offer a much steeper wall, there is much more that has to be
just right just to get started. So if the new stuff offers that
easy intro playground and has adequate docs, then replace ZClasses.

And btw, keep up the good work, thanks!

Sascha

-- 
http://betabug.ch/blogs/ch-athens

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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Lennart Regebro
 I don't know if I'm living under a rock or something, but I'm using Zope
 on and off since about 2.5.1, and I've barely heard about archetypes.
 So far I did not come across a simple introduction, tutorial,
 or even explanation of them.

The new stuff mentioned on this thread is the zope 3 component
architecture. With zope 2.8 it will be possible to start using the
same ideas (although not 100% compatible).

This will definitely be the new recommended way to do development, if
not in 2.8, then in 2.9, which hopefully will have great compatibilty
with zope3.

As mentioned, it is very important that the documentation get updated
to reflect this.

-- 
Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Ausum Studio
Is this a kafkanian situation? Are really core developers asking the
community to kick a used Zope's feature, saying it's because it's hard to
maintain it, and simultaneously to say it's code 'unmaintained and untouched
since ages'? Folks, you didn't need to ask for the aproval of people who
didn't make it with that feature. You just do it. You're the ones that
create the knots and know for sure where they are, and if you aren't in the
mood anymore just give the thing over. :)

As of your remarks, Andreas,  I understand your point. People who care
should take over. Sounds fair. Just please don't mean that we who say yes to
a Jim's question are guilty of not letting Zope to move on, because Zope is
moving to X3, not to 2.X+five, and definitely not to Archetypes, a CMF
subject.

As for ZC,  IMHO the issue should be treated as a matter of understanding
the market rather than achieving a milestone. You created stuff that works
in some way or another that people embraced. You also changed your company
name to the name of the product of yours that people embraced. And no matter
how much hype there is on new trends, you should realize that a song is just
a song until the market say it's a hit, and that X3 is that song. Shall you
start to put Zope2 into pieces before getting to know you already have a
hit?  :)


Ausum


- Original Message - 
From: Andreas Jung [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dieter Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: zope@zope.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Andreas Jung

--On Mittwoch, 6. April 2005 12:59 Uhr -0500 Ausum Studio 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Is this a kafkanian situation? Are really core developers asking the
community to kick a used Zope's feature, saying it's because it's hard to
maintain it, and simultaneously to say it's code 'unmaintained and
untouched since ages'?
I have not seen any significant changes to ZClasses since Zope 2.4/2.5 or
so (that's when I started working for ZC and learned about Zope). Now they
broke in Zope 2.8 and kept up the release and maybe only a small number
of people have the wisdom to maintain and fix outstanding issues.

As for ZC,  IMHO the issue should be treated as a matter of understanding
the market rather than achieving a milestone. You created stuff that works
in some way or another that people embraced. You also changed your company
name to the name of the product of yours that people embraced. And no
matter how much hype there is on new trends, you should realize that a
song is just a song until the market say it's a hit, and that X3 is that
song. Shall you start to put Zope2 into pieces before getting to know you
already have a hit?  :)
I don't understand what you want to say with that but ZC also lives from 
the
community and the community lives to a certain part of the work of ZC. So
is all about giving and taking :-)

-aj

pgpMoblDfI5EC.pgp
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Jonathan Cyr




Yoohoo,

ZClasses are not an expert technology to use, they are an introduction
to Zope... Just because I use a thing, doesn't mean I can
support/maintain a thing. I can read the list, and try to help folks
with questions that I've experienced... that's the support that can be
offered at my skill level.

If that's not enough... fine... drop ZClasses, then DTML (you know,
its next)... and all the folks in this boat with me.

ZC should decide whether the benefits of ZClasses for low-end
developers match against the hurdles to keeping it with the newer Zope
releases. If they don't see a need for this skill-level type of tool
in Zope's feature list, they will pay down the road... Growth is king,
even for Zope, who grew this platform? Growth means newbies, right?
What elements got Zope to where it is? Could ZClasses be on that
list? Why?

And seeing comments like...

- "Move to Zope Python Products" - you cant see the skill differences
between OOP  Zope's API vs. ZClasses

- "Use the Archetypes/CMF/Plone setup" - UML training? the CMF API and
Plone underpinnings, easy?

- "Maintain it yourself then" - Update very slick code within Zope's
flexible and aging API, with ZODB API too? Maintain it...Yeah sure,
hows this afternoon.

... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate
Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't
any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's
screwed, and the horse I rode in on.

And so here's the confession... "Hello, I'm Jon... I've used Zope for 2
years, and I can't help others program high-level Python OOP
tools/platform resources in a propriety web content management server.
I only can support their efforts when the occasional mailing list
opportunities present themselves."

-Jon Cyr, Intermediate Zope Developer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]








Andreas Jung wrote:

  
--On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
  And that is probably the best arguement for
keeping them around longer.

  
  
We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then they
should
  
take over some responsibility in maintaining them in future releases.
It can not be
  
that a "feature" regarded as obsolete (from the majority) and almost
unmaintained and
  
untouched since ages holds up further releases. I agree with Jim that
they should be
  
officially deprecated - means they could be removed in Zope 2.10. We
could leave them
  
longer if they should work in further releases without further work. If
there are serious
  
problems in further releases with ZClasses holding up a new release we
should kick them.
  
So if you depend on ZClasseslearn how they are implemented and
maintain them in the
  
future. But from the prospective of limited resource it is not
reasonable to spend much
  
time on ZClasses in the future.
  
  
  
-aj
  
  
  
  
  
  

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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Andreas Jung

--On Mittwoch, 6. April 2005 16:06 Uhr -0400 Jonathan Cyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

Yoohoo,
ZClasses are not an expert technology to use, they are an introduction to
Zope... Just because I use a thing, doesn't mean I can support/maintain a
thing.  I can read the list, and try to help folks with questions that
I've experienced... that's the support that can be offered at my skill
level.
There are better ways to learn Zope than by using ZClasses. They should no 
longer
be mentioned e.g. in the Zope Book.

If that's not enough... fine...  drop ZClasses, then DTML (you know, its
next)... and all the folks in this boat with me.
That's nonsense. Open-source is a giving and taking. Ok, you can demand 
something
*but* the resources of the people giving something to you are limited and 
restricted
by several constraints (company needs, personal time etc.). As said a bunch 
of times
earlier ZClasses help up the 2.8 release. Every software has its life-cycle 
it is sometimes
a good thing to drop old things over board *if* they tend to cause serious 
problems.
This is here the case. So my proposal was to deprecate them officially in 
2.8 with the
possibility to kick them in 2.10 or later. Read carefully (possibility). 
Means if they
do not hurt in 2.10 or 2.11 then could stay but ZClasses could be removed 
if major
resources would be necessary to fix them.

ZC should decide whether the benefits of ZClasses for low-end developers
match against the hurdles to keeping it with the newer Zope releases.  If
they don't see a need for this skill-level type of tool in Zope's feature
list, they will pay down the road... Growth is king, even for Zope, who
grew this platform?  Growth means newbies, right?  What elements got Zope
to where it is?  Could ZClasses be on that list?  Why?
And seeing comments like...
- Move to Zope Python Products - you cant see the skill differences
between OOP  Zope's API vs. ZClasses
- Use the Archetypes/CMF/Plone setup - UML training? the CMF API and
Plone underpinnings, easy?
If you are a somewhat clever (I assume you are) than you should be able
to adopt these technologies with a resonable amout of time. Using AT
as an example is easy and *more* straight forward than using ZClasses
where you can run against the wall very easily. From the programmers 
experiences
these frameworks are the future and definitely not ZClasses.

- Maintain it yourself then - Update very slick code within Zope's
flexible and aging API, with ZODB API too?  Maintain it...Yeah sure, hows
this afternoon.
See aboveif you have a need or interest in keep ZClasses you could pay 
Jim
some USD to fix ZClasses for you. I don't see it as a responsibility to 
provide
backward-compatibility for all and everything for ages. It would be nice to 
have
that *but* our resources are limited - they are especially limited because 
I see
little interest of the community helping out in Zope areas where work must 
be done.
Means the active people in the Zope community have/try to do help out in 
many fields
restricting their time from serious Zope work.

-aj


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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-06 Thread Dieter Maurer
Jonathan Cyr wrote at 2005-4-6 16:06 -0400:
... just show me how under-represented that beginner and intermediate 
Zope developers use this list... and then I think, perhaps there aren't 
any, just me and a few others... and if that's the case, Zope's screwed, 
and the horse I rode in on.

Do not worry too much!

Jim proposed to keep ZClasses alive until (at least) Zope 2.10.
And he asks whether there is enough interest to keep them longer...

If the Zope 2 releases progress in the same speed seen recently,
then Zope 2.10 will come in 4 to 6 years. That's a lot of time.
Of course, it is planned that future release cycles are much shorter
(one release every 6 months) but I do not yet buy that this will
indeed happen. Almost all releases were planned much earlier
than they happened.


And, we can keep ZClasses alive, at least until the next major
Persistency shakeup (after Jim made them working again for
the current Persistency shakeup) -- even when they are no longer
in the core.


In fact, I have had ten times more problems with Archetypes (which
I use now) than with ZClasses (which I used formerly).
It is true (and sad) that there are no unit tests for ZClasses
but ZClasses just broke twice in the past across releases
and the community quickly found
workarounds. These fixes were found much faster than those
for the security problems which were introduced from time to
time into Zope through security shakeups -- despite the fact
that there are unit tests for the security subsystem.


Thus, the right approach (in my view) is that all users
of ZClasses tell Jim, that ZClasses are used and interesting.
ZClasses may nevertheless get deprecated but probably kept
longer then Zope 2.10 unless they cause major problems.


For new projects, you should investigate the new options.
Product development will get much simpler with Zope3 technology
(and its schemas and views). Currently, there is no TTW
(Through The Web) development in Zope3 land, but that is planned.
In about 2 to 4 years, we may have new ZClass like
functionality implemented with Zope3 technology.
And I am quite confident that the old ZClasses will live til
then...


And so here's the confession... Hello, I'm Jon... I've used Zope for 2 
years, and I can't help others program high-level Python OOP 
tools/platform resources in a propriety web content management server.  
I only can support their efforts when the occasional mailing list 
opportunities present themselves.

That's fine. Continue with this support!


Do not worry too much about ZClasses. They will stay
for a significant time because Jim plans to take the next
major hurdle (thank you, Jim!).
After that, probably only small changes will
be necessary -- as in the past. We, the ZClass users, can
manage these minor changes -- as we did in the past.

-- 
Dieter
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RE: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Arenz, Ralph
SOS

This would mean a disaster for us. We've created a lot products using
ZClasses in 
production environment (internet,intranet,eai and so on) since zope-2.1.4.
In short our complete developement in Zope is heavily based on ZClasses. 

We plan to use ZClasses in the future, too. For us ZClasses are a essential
part 
of zope and they works very well. It is quite impossible for us to migrate
all our 
Products to python-products or somethong else and i guess that this is not
wanted by
you!?

I think that going away from ZClasses will let many other people with
legacy-software
running in the same problems. 

regards

ralph
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Garito
Arenz, Ralph escribió:
SOS
This would mean a disaster for us. We've created a lot products using
ZClasses in 
production environment (internet,intranet,eai and so on) since zope-2.1.4.
In short our complete developement in Zope is heavily based on ZClasses. 

We plan to use ZClasses in the future, too. For us ZClasses are a essential
part 
of zope and they works very well. It is quite impossible for us to migrate
all our 
Products to python-products or somethong else and i guess that this is not
wanted by
you!?

I think that going away from ZClasses will let many other people with
legacy-software
running in the same problems. 

regards
ralph
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Hi
Can you explain why you can't migrate from ZClasses to python-products?
Perhaps the best solution will be create a machinery to migrate ZClasses
Thanks!
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Lennart Regebro
On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was
that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new
recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to
support an old non-recommended one. :-)


Anyway, my main question is: You who are using ZClasses, can't you
just stay on Zope2.8 or 2.9, if Zope 2.10 would not contain ZClass
support? The main features of 2.8 is support for the component
architecture, and for zope 2.9 and 2.10 this will be even more true:
there will most likely be very few new features besides this. With 2.9
or 2.10 the idea is that you can use both  ZClasses, *and* write
products that work under Zope3. I'm not even sure there will be a
2.10, and in any case you won't really have much need of it.

I think it's a good idea to deprecate ZClasses if only to get people
to start moving over to the Zope3 based development paradigm.
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Jake
Lennart Regebro said:
 Anyway, my main question is: You who are using ZClasses, can't you
 just stay on Zope2.8 or 2.9, if Zope 2.10 would not contain ZClass
 support?

That is possible, but it would be nice to be able to transition out of
ZClasses through 2.8 - 2.9 - 2.10 as opposed to there being a drop off
cliff.

I think the idea of creating a ZCLass based pluging/product for 2.10
sounds like a good one. That was it can be rolled out of the ZOpe core and
maintained by those of us who care.

Jake

-- 
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Dieter Maurer
Lennart Regebro wrote at 2005-4-5 11:48 +0200:
On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was
that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new
recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to
support an old non-recommended one. :-)

ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book.

Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which
does not yet feature at all in the Zope book).


-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Jake
And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer.

Until the documentation has caught up to the new features, it seems a bit
ahead of schedule to start dropping support for them.

Jake
-- 
http://www.ZopeZone.com


Dieter Maurer said:
 Lennart Regebro wrote at 2005-4-5 11:48 +0200:
On the Paris sprint, one thing that was noted was how ironic it was
that the release of 2.8, which includes support for the new
recommended development paradigm, was held up becuase we neeeded to
support an old non-recommended one. :-)

 ZClasses feature prominently in the Zope book.

 Seems they are more recommended than the new development paradigm (which
 does not yet feature at all in the Zope book).


 --
 Dieter
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-05 Thread Andreas Jung

--On Dienstag, 5. April 2005 16:38 Uhr -0400 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And that is probably the best arguement for keeping them around longer.
We should get to the point: if some people depend on ZClasses then they 
should
take over some responsibility in maintaining them in future releases. It 
can not be
that a feature regarded as obsolete (from the majority) and almost 
unmaintained and
untouched since  ages holds up further releases. I agree with Jim that they 
should be
officially deprecated - means they could be removed in Zope 2.10. We could 
leave them
longer if they should work in further releases without further work. If 
there are serious
problems in  further releases with ZClasses holding up a new release we 
should kick them.
So if you depend on ZClasseslearn how they are implemented and maintain 
them in the
future. But from the prospective of limited resource it is not reasonable 
to spend much
time on ZClasses in the future.

-aj




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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Yuri
Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or 
archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to convert a 
zclass based on catagaware to one based on catalogPATHaware, or merge 
the two.

Or you just deprecate something that is used and don't deprecate some 
code that is obsolete by year ? :)
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Andreas Jung

--On Montag, 4. April 2005 9:58 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or
archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to convert a
zclass based on catagaware to one based on catalogPATHaware, or merge the
two.
This would be up to the community :-)
-aj


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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Yuri
Andreas Jung ha scritto:

--On Montag, 4. April 2005 9:58 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or
archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to convert a
zclass based on catagaware to one based on catalogPATHaware, or merge 
the
two.

This would be up to the community :-)
-aj
As a right KeywordIndex? *grin* :P
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Andreas Jung

--On Montag, 4. April 2005 10:23 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Andreas Jung ha scritto:

--On Montag, 4. April 2005 9:58 Uhr +0200 Yuri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Yes, but BEFORE do a tool to convert them in a python product or
archetype similar, a tool to change base classes, a tool to convert a
zclass based on catagaware to one based on catalogPATHaware, or merge
the
two.

This would be up to the community :-)
-aj
As a right KeywordIndex? *grin* :P
??
-aj



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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Chris Withers
Well, you know what I'm gonna say...
+1 for their demise.
+1 for DTML going too, oops, wait, Andreas said not to bring that up ;-)
cheers,
Chris
Jim Fulton wrote:
ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development.
Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some
significant deficiencies, including:
- They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially
  revision control systems like CVS and subversion.
- They don't work well with Python development tools, like
  profilers and debugger.
- They aren't being actively maintained.
Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time
ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them
around.  For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed
by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8.
We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
if this happened?
Jim
--
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Garito
Chris Withers escribió:
Well, you know what I'm gonna say...
+1 for their demise.
+1 for DTML going too, oops, wait, Andreas said not to bring that up ;-)
cheers,
Chris
Jim Fulton wrote:
ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development.
Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some
significant deficiencies, including:
- They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially
  revision control systems like CVS and subversion.
- They don't work well with Python development tools, like
  profilers and debugger.
- They aren't being actively maintained.
Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time
ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them
around.  For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed
by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8.
We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
if this happened?
Jim

Yep!
Don't talk about DTML or you will be punished (sorry Andreas I can't 
resist myself, hehe, obviously I'm joking)

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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread AM Thomas
I agree that ZClasses are not good to use.  However, I have a product 
based on ZClasses that I wrote several years ago (after reading the 
printed Zope book - doh!), and it's working well for several of my 
clients.  If future versions of Zope were to not support it, that would 
be a huge problem for me... unless there were some utility that would 
allow me to export my ZClasses to a regular file-system product.

Thanks,
AM
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Garito
AM Thomas escribió:
I agree that ZClasses are not good to use.  However, I have a product 
based on ZClasses that I wrote several years ago (after reading the 
printed Zope book - doh!), and it's working well for several of my 
clients.  If future versions of Zope were to not support it, that 
would be a huge problem for me... unless there were some utility that 
would allow me to export my ZClasses to a regular file-system product.

Thanks,
AM
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Perhaps will be a good choice to make ZClasses as an installable product 
(I don't know if this is possible or not

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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-04 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Apr 4, 2005 5:14 PM, Garito [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Perhaps will be a good choice to make ZClasses as an installable product
 (I don't know if this is possible or not

Sure it is, but the problem is that supporting it in future versions
of Zope very well may need changes in Zope itself.  Changes that is
*far* from trivial. So I think it's mostly a question of Should Zope
corp put down the effort to keep ZClasses working, because, most
likely nobody else can...

-- 
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CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-03 Thread Garito
Jim Fulton escribió:
ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development.
Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some
significant deficiencies, including:
- They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially
  revision control systems like CVS and subversion.
- They don't work well with Python development tools, like
  profilers and debugger.
- They aren't being actively maintained.
Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time
ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them
around.  For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed
by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8.
We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
if this happened?
Jim
My +1 for ZClasses deprecation
And +1 for DTML deprecation
Try to keep Zope simple
Simple = GOOD
Simple = EASY
Simple = BUGLESS
Simple = QUICK
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-03 Thread Dennis Allison
On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Garito wrote:
 
 My +1 for ZClasses deprecation
 And +1 for DTML deprecation
 
 Try to keep Zope simple

-1 for DTML deprecation.  
It serves a different purpose that ZPT--
DTML is Logic+HTML 
ZPT is  HTML+Logic.



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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-03 Thread Andreas Jung

--On Sonntag, 3. April 2005 14:57 Uhr +0200 Garito [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

And +1 for DTML deprecation
Deprecating DTML was never an issue. So stop the discussion about DTML. 
We're talking
about ZClasses.

-aj

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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-03 Thread Dieter Maurer
Andreas Jung wrote at 2005-4-2 08:58 +0200:
--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:52 Uhr -0500 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to
 support them as legacy into 3/2.10?

To avoid that people use ZClasses in the future :-)

ZClasses have a set of bugs (I know one) and weaknesses (I know
two or three) but all in all they are easier than the alternatives.

Thus, they still are a valuable feature...

-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-03 Thread Jim Fulton
Jake wrote:
My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses
I doubt that that is the case.
is, why not support them? You listed out the reasons why someone wouldn't
want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to
support them as legacy into 3/2.10?
Are you saying you want them in 2.10 but not necessarily beyond that (e.g. 
2.11)?
Or that you don't see why we don't support them indefinately?
It takes effort to support old features.  We have to weigh the benefits
against the cost of the feature.  For example, Zope 2.8 has been delayed
substantially due to the effort to keep them going.  If people find them
useful, then we can keep them, but we don't want to keep them otherwise.
Jim
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Dennis Allison

+1 for deprecation.  


On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Jim Fulton wrote:
 
 ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development.
 Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some
 significant deficiencies, including:
 
 - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially
revision control systems like CVS and subversion.
 
 - They don't work well with Python development tools, like
profilers and debugger.
 
 - They aren't being actively maintained.
 
 Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time
 ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them
 around.  For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed
 by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8.
 
 We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
 Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
 their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
 if this happened?
 
 Jim
 
 

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RE: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Ben Mason
And another +1

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
 Behalf Of Dennis Allison
 Sent: 01 April 2005 15:44
 To: Jim Fulton
 Cc: zope@zope.org
 Subject: Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
 
 
 +1 for deprecation.  
 
 
 On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Jim Fulton wrote:
  
  ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development.
  Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some
  significant deficiencies, including:
  
  - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially
 revision control systems like CVS and subversion.
  
  - They don't work well with Python development tools, like
 profilers and debugger.
  
  - They aren't being actively maintained.
  
  Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time
  ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them
  around.  For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed
  by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8.
  
  We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
  Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
  their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
  if this happened?
  
  Jim
  
  
 
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread bruno modulix
Jim Fulton wrote:
(snip)
Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?
ZClasses ? What are ZClasses ?
(Sorry, couldn't resist. +1 for deprecation)
--
Bruno Desthuilliers
Développeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Allen Schmidt
-l for deprecation
...until we build a replacement anyway...

Dennis Allison wrote:
+1 for deprecation.  

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Jim Fulton wrote:
ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development.
Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some
significant deficiencies, including:
- They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially
  revision control systems like CVS and subversion.
- They don't work well with Python development tools, like
  profilers and debugger.
- They aren't being actively maintained.
Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time
ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them
around.  For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed
by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8.
We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
if this happened?
Jim


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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread kosh
I vote we take off and nuke them from orbit it is the only way to be sure.

(+1 get rid of those dang things)

I have tried to help far too many people over the years on #zope that had 
problems with zclasses. They just seem fragile and should be removed.

On Friday 01 April 2005 5:22 am, Jim Fulton wrote:

 We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
 Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
 their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
 if this happened?

 Jim
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jim Fulton
Allen Schmidt wrote:
-l for deprecation
...until we build a replacement anyway...
What do you mean by replacement?  In Zope 3, I plan to
provide persistent modules to support prototying new
applications through the web.  It will be possible to
automatically convert these to file-system-based
packages once you are ready to move to production and
evolutionary development. I expect this capability to
appear in Zope 2 eventually.  Would this be a suitable
replacement?
Jim
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jake
As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across 10
different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not happy
to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come.

If they are supported in 2.8 - 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok.
Again, it is going to take me and others a lot of work to migrate out our
data from those products into other vehicles but such is progress.

Jake
-- 
http://www.ZopeZone.com


Jim Fulton said:

 ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development.
 Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some
 significant deficiencies, including:

 - They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially
revision control systems like CVS and subversion.

 - They don't work well with Python development tools, like
profilers and debugger.

 - They aren't being actively maintained.

 Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time
 ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them
 around.  For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed
 by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8.

 We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
 Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
 their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
 if this happened?

 Jim

 --
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jim Fulton
Jake wrote:
As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across 10
different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not happy
to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come.
If they are supported in 2.8 - 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok.
If we deprecated them now, they would be gone in 2.10 (not to be
confused with 3.0) too.
Again, it is going to take me and others a lot of work to migrate out our
data from those products into other vehicles but such is progress.
A decision hasn't been made.  People who don't use them feel strongly
that they should go.  I'm trying to get a sense of how widely they are
used.  I'm trying to understand if people who use ZClasses are a silent
majority, minority, or small minority.
Jim
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Paul Winkler
+1 for deprecation.  However, I haven't used them for years.
I suspect you will hear otherwise from some people with 
currently deployed solutions based on ZClasses...
(cue Dieter)

-- 

Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Andreas Jung

--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 7:22 Uhr -0500 Jim Fulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
if this happened?
+2 to get rid of them
-aj


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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jake
My vote is to keep them around for 2.8 and 2.9 but say goodbye after that.

Again.. it won't be easy for us, but who said progress ever was.

Jake
-- 
http://www.ZopeZone.com


Jim Fulton said:
 Jake wrote:
 As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across
 10
 different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not
 happy
 to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come.

 If they are supported in 2.8 - 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok.

 If we deprecated them now, they would be gone in 2.10 (not to be
 confused with 3.0) too.

 Again, it is going to take me and others a lot of work to migrate out
 our
 data from those products into other vehicles but such is progress.

 A decision hasn't been made.  People who don't use them feel strongly
 that they should go.  I'm trying to get a sense of how widely they are
 used.  I'm trying to understand if people who use ZClasses are a silent
 majority, minority, or small minority.

 Jim

 --
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 CTO  (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org
 Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com   http://www.zope.org



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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Lennart Regebro
+1 on deprecation.


(As for replacements, persistent schemas in Zope3 will enable the
thing that ZClasses should have been: Combining a set of base classes
with functionality with a TTW editable schema.

CPSschemas is halfway there: You can make your own content classes
already, but you can't change the baseclass. But that's a discussion
for anotehr day).

-- 
Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Ira Sher
I can understand wanting to deprecate them, but I have to say, as the
maintainer of a site written by someone else about six years ago in
zope 1 days, that this would be a mess to migrate and require a total
site rewrite. The client is unfortuneatly a non-profit mid-sized
independent press, and this would likely doom them to remain at 2.9
forever...eck, as far as keeping a server going with an increasingly
outdated zope, and probably an outdated python, too...

On Apr 1, 2005 10:15 AM, Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 +1 on deprecation.
 
 (As for replacements, persistent schemas in Zope3 will enable the
 thing that ZClasses should have been: Combining a set of base classes
 with functionality with a TTW editable schema.
 
 CPSschemas is halfway there: You can make your own content classes
 already, but you can't change the baseclass. But that's a discussion
 for anotehr day).
 
 --
 Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
 CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Dieter Maurer
Jim Fulton wrote at 2005-4-1 07:22 -0500:
 ...
We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
if this happened?

We use ZClasses for several applications which we would (if possible)
not like to rewrite.

-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Ausum Studio
To me it depends on how much time ZClasses are going to last.  If  ZClasses
will stay for the next two years, then it's fine for us, as we probably will
persuade ourselves to rewrite all of our stuff  in ZopeX3, and not in
Zope2.X

Jim, bear in mind that people that will agree to its deprecation is people
that in one way or another aren't using them or stopped using them, for
whatever valid reason they had ever found. Ask to the people who actually
doesn't have any problem with them. Take this as an example:
http://www.zope.org/Members/sums/News_Item.2004-10-20.2121

As of us, we are happily using them for a large project on dynamic packaging
for travel operators and travel agencies, a complex application featuring
dynamic pricing and the content management of  rich-media personalized
itineraries. I chose ZClasses as it offered us a mean of working
interactively with our partner, without the constraints of having to have a
detailed road map to start with.( Dynamic pakaging in the travel industry is
still a moving target ). ZClasses offered us a way to put test features up
and running quickly, just to find out they would make any sense or not.

Whether there already is a tool like that in ZopeLand, I would agree to its
deprecation, but actually there's nothing like it. Certainly ZClasses is not
what it promised to be, but what it does do, it does it brilliantly, IMNSHO.


Ausum


- Original Message - 
From: Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: zope@zope.org
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?


 My vote is to keep them around for 2.8 and 2.9 but say goodbye after that.

 Again.. it won't be easy for us, but who said progress ever was.

 Jake
 -- 
 http://www.ZopeZone.com


 Jim Fulton said:
  Jake wrote:
  As someone who has at least 5 different products using ZClasses across
  10
  different websites with millions of hits a month, I am certainly not
  happy
  to see them go, but I do understand that their time has come.
 
  If they are supported in 2.8 - 2.9 and gone in 3.0 I guess that is ok.
 
  If we deprecated them now, they would be gone in 2.10 (not to be
  confused with 3.0) too.
 
  Again, it is going to take me and others a lot of work to migrate out
  our
  data from those products into other vehicles but such is progress.
 
  A decision hasn't been made.  People who don't use them feel strongly
  that they should go.  I'm trying to get a sense of how widely they are
  used.  I'm trying to understand if people who use ZClasses are a silent
  majority, minority, or small minority.
 
  Jim
 
  --
  Jim Fulton   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Python Powered!
  CTO  (540) 361-1714http://www.python.org
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jonathan Cyr




Big mistake, IMHO,

You have no replacement for intermediate developers... the only decent
documentation, being the various books, have ZClasses throughout.
Explain their absence to the newbies grokking for Zope enlightenment.

Not everyone needs/wants development tools, some like the TTW
management. 

The ZClass code seems to work flawlessly for me, never a problem.

Who didn't cut their teeth with ZClasses? ZClasses are the reason I
realized Zope was so powerful... Gee, how would I use an Object
database???, the ZClass showed me... and later I added Zope Products to
the mix with my ZClasses and created a viable business based on Zope.
How are newbies going to make the leap to the newer Zope offerings
without a ZClass to start with.

This list is full of experts... and I appreciate the resource... but
often the intermediate Zope programmer is plowed over... whether it's
the topic of ZClasses or DTML, or any other way Zope used to do
things. I have to choose each Zope technology carefully for the time
investment. ZClasses were well worth my time measured with the whole
picture... web design, flash programming, HTML, RSS, _javascript_, css,
interactive marketing, systems administration, etc. I can't say that
for some Zope technology offerings. 

I took the better part of 1 1/2 years developing a business based on
Zope, heavily relying on ZClasses (and DTML), based on the choices in
Zope presented at the time. I bought every book available, which
pointed to ZClasses and DTML being THE way to go... I bought into the
TTW strategy of managing web apps, and I like it... ZClasses fit the
bill for me... I don't need the CMF, APE, ZPT, Plone projects... I need
a simple way to deliver rich objects in an object database... ZClasses

My business venture, based on Zope is just now starting to bear
fruit... it would be a shame if the frantic pace of Zope's software
lifecycle couldn't be patient enough for the real world's business
lifecycles. 

I started developing on 2.6.1 and have been able to stay fairly current
to 2.7.3, and stayed fairly pure, only products added were formulator
and varimage... figured staying compatible with Zope's core features
would be to my benefit... ZClasses are a core feature of Zope

Unlike the depreciated Versions feature, which was more of a problem
that benefit ZClasses do work, DTML does, as long as you don't try
to make them solve complex problems.

Keep ZClasses until there's a replacement for "Simple Rich Objects in
the Object Database" for the intermediate Zope programmers.

This hits me very close to home, I apologize for any harsh terms and
appreciate Zope, the Zope team, and the work of all of the folks on
this list, making it so great. I hope this helps in the discussion and
weighing of priorities. 

I appreciate you asking, thanks for your time,

Jonathan Cyr
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
WeddingWeblog.com





Jim Fulton wrote:

ZClasses are a feature that support through-the-web development.
  
Many people have found them useful in the past, but they have some
  
significant deficiencies, including:
  
  
- They can't be managed with file-system tools, especially
  
 revision control systems like CVS and subversion.
  
  
- They don't work well with Python development tools, like
  
 profilers and debugger.
  
  
- They aren't being actively maintained.
  
  
Most serious Zope developers stopped using them a long time
  
ago and are frustrated that we still expend resources keeping them
  
around. For example, the release of Zope 2.8 has been delayed
  
by the requirement of getting ZClasses working with Zope 2.8.
  
  
We could choose to deprecate ZClasses. If we deprecated them in
  
Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
  
their support would be removed in Zope 2.10. Would anyone be upset
  
if this happened?
  
  
Jim
  
  



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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Jake
My question, since it now seems like I am not the only one using ZClasses
is, why not support them? You listed out the reasons why someone wouldn't
want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to
support them as legacy into 3/2.10?

Jake
-- 
http://www.ZopeZone.com


Dieter Maurer said:
 Jim Fulton wrote at 2005-4-1 07:22 -0500:
 ...
We could choose to deprecate ZClasses.  If we deprecated them in
Zope 2.8, they would still work in Zope 2.8 and Zope 2.9, but
their support would be removed in Zope 2.10.  Would anyone be upset
if this happened?

 We use ZClasses for several applications which we would (if possible)
 not like to rewrite.

 --
 Dieter
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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Andreas Jung

--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:21 Uhr -0500 Ausum Studio 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Whether there already is a tool like that in ZopeLand, I would agree to
its deprecation, but actually there's nothing like it. Certainly ZClasses
is not what it promised to be, but what it does do, it does it
brilliantly, IMNSHO.
If you depend on ZClasses you might take over some responsibility or 
resources in maintaining
ZClasses *wink* :-)

-aj


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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Andreas Jung

--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:52 Uhr -0500 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to
support them as legacy into 3/2.10?
To avoid that people use ZClasses in the future :-)
-aj

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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread David H
Andreas Jung wrote:

--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 16:52 Uhr -0500 Jake [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

want to use them going forward, but what are the reasons why not to
support them as legacy into 3/2.10?

To avoid that people use ZClasses in the future :-)
-aj

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The problem with ZClasses is that is was a very good idea.  Lots of us 
used them.  I did, but thru luck and caprice migrated toward Python Scripts.
I would recommend ZClass people should form a group.  And have good 
people keep the thing compatible with each Zope release.
David

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Re: [Zope] Does anyone care whether we deprecate ZClasses?

2005-04-01 Thread Andreas Jung

--On Freitag, 1. April 2005 23:10 Uhr -0800 David H 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I would recommend ZClass people should form a group.  And have good
people keep the thing compatible with each Zope release.
David
I doubt that anyone will touch ZClasses - except Dieter and Jim :-)
It's good to see them go..and there are enough solutions to replace 
ZClasses with much
cleaner and supported solutions (e.g. with Zope+Five+Z3 schemas  or CMF + 
AT or CMF + CPSSchemas).

-aj



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