Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
Hey, On Nov 27, 2007 9:25 PM, Garry Saddington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 27 November 2007 17:19, Martijn Faassen wrote: We need to identify some targets and see what resources we have to accomplish them. Of course this shouldn't degenerate into a long wishlist discussion, but let's see what kind of steps can be taken. I came to Zope as a newbie about 4 years ago. I used DTML from the word go because I wanted to use databases extensively and therefore ZSQL. Of course, when I started to get into difficulty I asked on this list. I got lambasted firstly for using DTML and secondly for seemingly wanting answers! I therefore became afraid of the list and the response I may get from questions so much so that I stopped asking. That's of course not a good experience to have with a community! I mean, I can see how people could say: hey, why are you using DTML instead of ZPT, but to get lambasted is not right. I learned the hard way - trial and error and reading whatever I could find -usually hard to find. I was therefore pleasantly surprised when I first asked a question on the Postgresql users list. Not only was the response friendly and helpful but many responders actually wrote code to solve my problem or to show me how to solve it. It is this sort of attitude that we should try to foster on this list. I fully agree. One of the problems we have with Zope is that we have so many different ways to fix things, and ways to approach things have evolved significantly over time. This has caused some disconnect between people. I for one would be hard-pressed by now to be able to answer DTML and ZSQL questions. 7 years ago that was different as I used this stuff a lot then. We will need to think about how to solve this problem, too. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, , Django, CherryPy
Hey, On Nov 28, 2007 12:04 AM, Martijn Jacobs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] So that's why I mention this quote : Martijn, I'm very curious about the status, plan or purpose of the new zope.org? Quick answer: I direct (cc) you to Martin Aspeli, and Jodok Batlogg on this. Quick summary: work is actively progressing on making this a Plone site with a new skin and content structure. Martin and Jodokk can tell you more should you want to participate in the process. You're right that zope.org is part of our problem. I think the other part is active volunteers who want to maintain zope 2 (not just the code, for which we're okay, but also documentation). I hope the new website effort will also help there. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, , Django, CherryPy
Hey, On Nov 28, 2007 12:16 AM, Martijn Jacobs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We could also consider putting them in some kind of collective-like SVN repository so that people can make changes when they need to. I think this is a great idea as it works with the Plone collective this way as well. Just to make it utterly clear: this stuff won't happen by itself. We need a bunch of self-driven volunteers to do this work: look up the relevant codebases, contact their authors, check them into a SVN if they look orphaned (if they aren't of course don't fork them!) and make an index page describing what is going on. This can be done independently from zope.org, and should later become part of the zope.org website. You will need a SVN repository somewhere. svn.zope.org could be used if you have committer access, but it would be somewhat restricted as GPL-ed products can't be placed in there. Anyway, all these questions I'm thinking of now someone else should take the lead on, as it won't be me. :) Once you figure out who are going to take the lead on this project, please *do* let me know so I can keep in touch with you guys. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, , Django, CherryPy
Hi Martijn. Just to make it utterly clear: this stuff won't happen by itself. I understand. It's good to hear that zope 2 is in good hands, at least for working on the code. If a new zope.org is in development I can volunteer to make some tutorials or even documentation. Will get back on this one later. Martijn. -- Martijn Jacobs Four Digits, Internet Solutions a: Willemsplein 15-1 6811 KB Arnhem NL kvk: 09162137 | btw: 8161.22.234.B01 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | web: http://www.fourdigits.nl tel: +31 (0)26 44 22 700 | fax: +31 (0)84 22 06 117 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
Hello, If you do not have time to program, and you want to build dynamic web sites, maybe you could use Zope2 with Plone, and just use the existing Plone products. Ok, you think Plone is tooo much, but it should cover 99% of any basic dynamic web site features. Regards, Eric BREHAULT On Nov 27, 2007 2:18 AM, Rene B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I've researched quite a few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I've also looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah. I'm beginning to think there's nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I'm a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn't have the time to get really proficient at it. I selected Python as a language of choice and that's all I've used. I've written a few scripts . I'm interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you it's impossible to select a tool. I've researched all the tools mentioned above. The most important thing in my decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic site. I don't want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. Its not python. Not even close. Out of all the ones I've researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It's easy. I know why ZPT has it's advantages but for ease of use it doesn't come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I'd be the only working on it meaning I'll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic portions of it. So I don't' need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah. I'm afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it's going in. Not to mention I don't particularly like ZPT. I've read DTML isn't going anywhere but I don't imagine I'll get much support on it when needed and I'm sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead. Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok's new plugins for any template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about template languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was use the one that you like. So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others over the one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they choose. Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard. I like Mod_python with PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I've seen. Yet Mod_Python has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular. The other frameworks have some good ideas. I like Karrigell but you just don't know how long it will be supported.Gluon is cool but its new. Zope 3 is out of the question. Grok looks to me like another CherryPy. It may be easier the Zope 3 but it's not easier then Zope 2. Plus I've yet to get it installed on my windows XP to play. I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many examples. Plus no auto generated content like you get in Zope 2. Yes some magic is good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out with.People like some magic. saves time. Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to me. So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can't find any books on it released after 2002. Plone is tooo much. There aren't any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are there haven't been touched for years. Zope 2 wiki seems dead. I was looking the other day for some type of auto CRUD for Zope 2. couldn't find anyting. No one seems to be adding anything new to Zope 2 which scares me the most. If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it's going to be around for awhile and have good support and new addons being added all of the time to help me. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
On 11/27/07, Rene B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it's going in. Oh come on. Anyone 'afraid' to learn something has lost already. Either you don't want to learn it, or you do want. If you like it, use it. Making simple Web applications in Zope 2 actually is so easy, one can't even speak of a real effort, so don't make it one an just start using it. You'll become more proficient quickly, and if you still like it, stick with it and try more complex things. There aren't any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are there haven't been touched for years. well, they work. At least the ones I use (PluggableUserFolder, GroupUserFolder, ExtFile, CMF). And CMF _is_ evolving, ExtFile seems maintained and a whole lot of other Products are, too - just not on zope.org, so it's a bit tricky to find them. If you use Zope, and find something you'll need as Product, perhaps you'll write you own. It's not very hard, just read the code of some other Products. Zope 2 wiki seems dead. I was looking the other day for some type of auto CRUD for Zope 2. couldn't find anyting. There are many who don't need any auto CRUD just because they don't need any database besides ZODB. And in ZODB CRUD==python. And you have ZSQL Methods to bake your own. No one seems to be adding anything new to Zope 2 which scares me the most. I would call this maturity, and I'm happy about it. Or do you mean a lack of shiny drop-in web 2.0 products you only have to click together to become excited? Well... If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it's going to be around for awhile and have good support and new addons being added all of the time to help me. Zope 2 has been around a long time already, and I *think* it'll be much longer. Much software which is being added on constantly is crap, because someone has to maintain the *existing* add-ons and someone has to write the new add-ons. This is the old question whether a software is finished some day or not (feature creep). --knitti ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
Hey, On Nov 27, 2007 2:18 AM, Rene B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I've researched quite a few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I've also looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah. I can see how that would be frustrating; there are indeed many of them out there and the Zope situation is currently rather muddled with a lot of choices and not much clarity which one to pick... I'm beginning to think there's nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I'm a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn't have the time to get really proficient at it. I selected Python as a language of choice and that's all I've used. I've written a few scripts . I'm interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you it's impossible to select a tool. I've researched all the tools mentioned above. There's one important question that might help guide you towards choosing the right framework for you: what kind of thing do you typically want your dynamic websites to do? You say below they're relatively simple websites and there'd be just you working on them typically. Do you use relational databases a lot? The most important thing in my decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic site. I don't want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. Its not python. Not even close. Out of all the ones I've researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It's easy. I'd be very interested in hearing more about this. As someone helping to build a framework (Grok), it'd be really interesting to know more about what attracts you to Zope 2. Did you learn DTML through a tutorial? If so, may I ask which? I'd like to know what gave you the impression that it was easy and fun to work with. I know why ZPT has it's advantages but for ease of use it doesn't come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I'd be the only working on it meaning I'll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic portions of it. So I don't' need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah. As someone who used DTML quite a lot back in '99 - '01 or so, I'd say DTML is a new language that isn't that close to Python either. While I certainly don't despise the language, it was quite frustrating to use sometimes because it wasn't enough like Python and trying to make it be that way made it look very complicated. I'm afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it's going in. Not to mention I don't particularly like ZPT. I've read DTML isn't going anywhere but I don't imagine I'll get much support on it when needed and I'm sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead. Yes, that is indeed a risk, I'm afraid. You touch an important point. Where is Zope 2 going? In general, the answer tends to be more use of Zope 3 technologies. That isn't a very satisfactory answer for you though, as Zope 3 technologies are most likely not going to make your life more easy. Eventually it may mean more Grok technologies too, but that may not be very helpful to you either, as you already prefer Zope 2 to Grok. May I ask, is the presence of the ZMI a contributing factor in Zope 2's appeal? The fact that you can go in and create a DTML method or Python script in your web browser without any file system setup? Or would this not matter to you if you could just as easily work with these on the file system? Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok's new plugins for any template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about template languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was use the one that you like. So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others over the one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they choose. I'm not quite sure whether the bottom line for template languages is use the one you like: a common one will be a benefit for any web framework as it will make it easier to talk to other developers, exchange code, and so on. That said, I also believe a web framework should allow the use of other languages; it needs to evolve after all and people need to be able to experiment. Zope 2 is a good example, as by now most people use ZPT while DTML was dominant 7 years ago. Allowing an extra template language in Zope 2 made that possible. I think it would be a nice project for someone to make DTML work with Grok as a template language plugin. Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard. That is interesting as well; may I ask why you thought Django was too hard, compared to Zope 2? I like Mod_python with PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I've seen. Yet Mod_Python has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular.
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
Hi there, On Nov 27, 2007 4:14 AM, Chetan Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Stick to Zope 2 with DTML if that serves your purpose. It will serve you well. I think your problem is solved !!! I don't think it so simple. He was looking for a vibrant community that would support his needs. I think the Zope community isn't as vibrant anymore in his area as it used to be. I can certainly see that giving rise to some concern. When I approach an open source project, I look for the exact same things: a vibrant community in the area of my needs. If it's not there, I'll be much less likely to invest a lot of time in it, even if everything else seems right. I wouldn't want to stick to a dead-end myself, and traditional Zope 2 approaches are looking more and more like a dead end, as the community of developers that can support this has in many ways moved on. I'm not saying the situation for Zope 2 is *disastrous*; the technological base will be around for many years yet, but it's certainly not the same for beginners as it used to be 5 years ago. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
The gentleman here likes DTML (I hope it is zope-DTML). Looks like he is equipped (with his limited time) to whip up something to please his boss !!! Rest will follow as it did for most of us who learnt on the way as required. It will be good if he gets things working using what he has already learnt with worrying about what latest all the rest of the zope world is working on. It sitll works even if it is Zope2 and DTML. In addition to the question of vibrant community there this learning curve thing about zope when you are reading postings on the list (old ones are good enough, for DTML say, if there is nothing on this morning's digest) and online stuff. There are books these days but as we see here things are tough for a new-comer. So, Mr B, please go ahead with what you have been able to learn so far and there will be much more joy when you learn all the new stuff people discuss here these days. Cheers to all. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
Zope2 + DTML + Python and you're good to go. I know a bunch of developers/designers, including myself that use this combo all the time. I currently use it for projects at a Fortune 500 company. The docs suck but once you get in the groove you can bang out solid, stable, good looking, standard compliant sites unbelievably fast. Acquisition can be your best friend and you reuse a lot of your coding for multiple projects. There are still developers on this list who use DTML over ZPT, they just dont post much to it because of the ZPT backlash you get when you do. I've gotten private messages off this list from people though about DTML so there is support out there. Its true that most of the products for Zope 2 have been updated in a while but I can tell you that most will work fine with the latest Zope 2 release and are very customizable. The Zope2 ecosystem is pretty mature and stable just poorly documented or supported. I do think you'll probably get the Zope Zen quicker than you think and be able to figure out a lot on your own. On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:18 PM, Rene B wrote: I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve researched quite a few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I’ve also looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah. I’m beginning to think there’s nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I’m a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn’t have the time to get really proficient at it. I selected Python as a language of choice and that’s all I’ve used. I’ve written a few scripts . I’m interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you it’s impossible to select a tool. I’ve researched all the tools mentioned above. The most important thing in my decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic site. I don’t want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. Its not python. Not even close. Out of all the ones I’ve researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It’s easy. I know why ZPT has it’s advantages but for ease of use it doesn’t come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I’d be the only working on it meaning I’ll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic portions of it. So I don’t’ need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah. I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it’s going in. Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t going anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support on it when needed and I’m sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead. Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok’s new plugins for any template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about template languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was use the one that you like. So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others over the one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they choose. Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard. I like Mod_python with PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I’ve seen. Yet Mod_Python has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular. The other frameworks have some good ideas. I like Karrigell but you just don’t know how long it will be supported.Gluon is cool but its new. Zope 3 is out of the question. Grok looks to me like another CherryPy. It may be easier the Zope 3 but it’s not easier then Zope 2. Plus I’ve yet to get it installed on my windows XP to play. I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many examples. Plus no auto generated content like you get in Zope 2. Yes some magic is good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out with.People like some magic. saves time. Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to me. So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it released after 2002. Plone is tooo much. There aren’t any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are there haven’t been touched for years. Zope 2 wiki seems dead. I was looking the other day for some type of auto CRUD for Zope 2. couldn’t find anyting. No one seems to be adding anything new to Zope 2 which scares me the most. If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it’s going to be around for awhile and have good support and new addons being added all of the time to help me. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
Very nice words I have near complette mirror of the old.zope.org from 2004 or 2005 if someone wants (and rememner that old site and good where are many products that you couldnot find at web now). There are many fantastic products which I use at near each site. So I will try to put it online. - Original Message - From: Tom Von Lahndorff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Zope2 + DTML + Python and you're good to go. I know a bunch of developers/designers, including myself that use this combo all the time. I currently use it for projects at a Fortune 500 company. The docs suck but once you get in the groove you can bang out solid, stable, good looking, standard compliant sites unbelievably fast. Acquisition can be your best friend and you reuse a lot of your coding for multiple projects. There are still developers on this list who use DTML over ZPT, they just dont post much to it because of the ZPT backlash you get when you do. I've gotten private messages off this list from people though about DTML so there is support out there. Its true that most of the products for Zope 2 have been updated in a while but I can tell you that most will work fine with the latest Zope 2 release and are very customizable. The Zope2 ecosystem is pretty mature and stable just poorly documented or supported. I do think you'll probably get the Zope Zen quicker than you think and be able to figure out a lot on your own. On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:18 PM, Rene B wrote: I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve researched quite a few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I’ve also looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah. I’m beginning to think there’s nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I’m a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn’t have the time to get really proficient at it. I selected Python as a language of choice and that’s all I’ve used. I’ve written a few scripts . I’m interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you it’s impossible to select a tool. I’ve researched all the tools mentioned above. The most important thing in my decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic site. I don’t want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. Its not python. Not even close. Out of all the ones I’ve researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It’s easy. I know why ZPT has it’s advantages but for ease of use it doesn’t come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I’d be the only working on it meaning I’ll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic portions of it. So I don’t’ need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah. I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it’s going in. Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t going anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support on it when needed and I’m sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead. Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok’s new plugins for any template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about template languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was use the one that you like. So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others over the one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they choose. Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard. I like Mod_python with PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I’ve seen. Yet Mod_Python has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular. The other frameworks have some good ideas. I like Karrigell but you just don’t know how long it will be supported.Gluon is cool but its new. Zope 3 is out of the question. Grok looks to me like another CherryPy. It may be easier the Zope 3 but it’s not easier then Zope 2. Plus I’ve yet to get it installed on my windows XP to play. I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many examples. Plus no auto generated content like you get in Zope 2. Yes some magic is good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out with.People like some magic. saves time. Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to me. So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it released after 2002. Plone is tooo much. There aren’t any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are there haven’t been touched for years. Zope 2 wiki seems dead. I was looking the other day for some type of auto CRUD for Zope 2. couldn’t find anyting. No one seems to be adding anything new to Zope 2 which scares me the most. If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it’s going to be around for awhile and have good support and new addons being added all of the time to
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
I've been using Zope 2 since 2000 and like it a lot, but I think your concerns are very valid. I don't fully understand why the Zope 2 (and Zope 3) community seems so much less vibrant than it used to be, but am aware of several well-known possible factors, in particular the Zope2 vs Zope3 schism, the state of the zope.org web site, and the wide set of competing alternatives. That said, Zope is very rich and, in my opinion, very mature. I have used Zope 2 too extensively to give it up. I use it for several sites. I don't see anything I like better, but have a nagging worry that Zope, and especially Zope 2, may become increasingly neglected as time goes by. I hope I am wrong, but it is definitely something to be concerned about. All in all, I'd still recommend Zope 2 and, in fact, hope for all of sake of us all that lots of other people continue to make this choice. Note that even COBOL and the Amiga, the most obsolete technologies I can think of readily, still have developer communities, so even the worst-case scenarios won't imply a sudden Zope termination. Personally, I find DTML a moderately ugly language, but very effective and easy to get in to. I use it often, but typically only in limited amounts per page. When the going gets rough and complicated you should think about using a Python scripts and resist the temptation of getting into hairy DTML tricks. DTML in Zope is like salt: it is necessary to life, very tempting and seductive, but can have bad consequences when used to excess. Somebody asked about what things make Zope so appealing and without re-listing the whole feature set, the combination of the ZMI and the very simple and robust through-the-web stuff, the wide selection of both powerful and quick-to-use script and template solutions, and a good selection of plugin products are the top features. Cheetah and Zope sounds like an obvious combination. I am surprised it hasn't been done yet and will be shocked it if isn't implemented by somebody within another month or two. One issue is that Cheetah has the non-XML ugliness of DTML without really big advantages in terms of functionality (even though it looks clean), and it would further fragment the community and set of options. Splitting a community is a really dangerous idea. Even Zope plus PHP might be a safer choice for the resulting sub-community (note I am holding my nose as I type this). I've used Plone a fair bit, but find it too heavy for many simple applications, even though it has some really great features. (Heavy in various ways.) The Plone 2 vs Plone 3 migration just makes it more complicated. Greg http://www.dudek.org/blog On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:18 PM, Rene B wrote: I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve researched quite a few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I’ve also looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it’s going in. Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t going anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support on it when needed and I’m sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead. ... I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many examples. Plus no auto generated content like you get in Zope 2. Yes some magic is good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out with.People like some magic. saves time. Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to me. So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it released after 2002. Plone is tooo much. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
Hey, On Nov 27, 2007 4:47 PM, Jaroslav Lukesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very nice words I have near complette mirror of the old.zope.org from 2004 or 2005 if someone wants (and rememner that old site and good where are many products that you couldnot find at web now). There are many fantastic products which I use at near each site. So I will try to put it online. This sounds like something that could be potentially interesting for new new zope.org, which is currently in development. I've cc-ed this to Martin Aspeli so he knows about this. Perhaps you could salvage the most useful older codebases and we can put them online - since this stuff is open source we have the liberty to do so. We could also consider putting them in some kind of collective-like SVN repository so that people can make changes when they need to. I think doing this kind of stuff would be a really worthwhile project to breathe some new life into the classical way of using Zope. It'd be really nice to see some life in this part of the community. Meanwhile I hope that the Grok community can somehow learn from this and bring some of these features back in a new form. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
Hey, On Nov 27, 2007 5:14 PM, Gregory Dudek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have used Zope 2 too extensively to give it up. I use it for several sites. I don't see anything I like better, but have a nagging worry that Zope, and especially Zope 2, may become increasingly neglected as time goes by. I hope I am wrong, but it is definitely something to be concerned about. All in all, I'd still recommend Zope 2 and, in fact, hope for all of sake of us all that lots of other people continue to make this choice. I think it would be great if you and several like minded users of Zope 2 could get together and change this. After all, this is an open source project, and we can actually do something about this. It's up to us. We want a more active Zope 2 community. What does that mean? What kind of community activities would you like to see? What kind of direction of development would make you happy? We need to identify some targets and see what resources we have to accomplish them. Of course this shouldn't degenerate into a long wishlist discussion, but let's see what kind of steps can be taken. I'm in this for two reasons: * as a developer of Grok, I'm very interested in improving the beginner scenario for Grok and I hope to learn something from what people like about classic Zope 2 (which I used for years myself, of course) * I'm (since a few weeks) chairman of the Zope Foundation board, and I think it's an important task for the foundation to support the community. Now I don't mean a pot of money or something, as we don't have any, but perhaps there are a few small obstacles we can get rid of, and a few channels of communication we can open here and there. [snip] Somebody asked about what things make Zope so appealing and without re-listing the whole feature set, the combination of the ZMI and the very simple and robust through-the-web stuff, the wide selection of both powerful and quick-to-use script and template solutions, and a good selection of plugin products are the top features. Yes, I think those are strong points of Zope 2 and those points are currently missing in the Zope 3 world, including Grok. One reason the ZMI is frowned on for development is because many of us has been burned - we got trapped by the ZMI and weren't able to use a version control system easily, our favorite editors easily, and so on. We've thought on and off during early Zope 3 development about ways to bring back the ZMI without these disadvantages. As Zope 3 development progressed we've not been able to spend much time on the topic. I wouldn't expect to look at the Zope 3 community itself to solve this problem by now, as they're generally not very interested in it. Grok is more interested in a beginner story, but we still are very filesystem oriented. I wonder what could be built on top though. It'll have to be done by interested volunteers, and that's the chicken-and-egg problem: those who are able to do so are usually comfortable with the filesystem mode of development and don't need these tools. Do we have any ideas to get to chickens and/or eggs? Cheetah and Zope sounds like an obvious combination. I am surprised it hasn't been done yet and will be shocked it if isn't implemented by somebody within another month or two. It should certainly be doable to write a Grok plugin. :) One issue is that Cheetah has the non-XML ugliness of DTML without really big advantages in terms of functionality (even though it looks clean), and it would further fragment the community and set of options. Splitting a community is a really dangerous idea. Agreed that we shouldn't fragment the community further. It's indeed dangerous. Let's focus a bit more about pulling it back together again. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, , Django, CherryPy
Rene B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm beginning to think there's nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I'm a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn't have the time to get really proficient at it. ... Out of all the ones I've researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It's easy. I know why ZPT has it's advantages but for ease of use it doesn't come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I'd be the only working on it meaning I'll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic portions of it. So I don't' need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah. Then your search is over. Just use Zope 2. I'm in almost exactly your position. I learned DTML because at the time the Zope tutorials all taught it first (they probably still do), and since I'm never going to be editing code except by hand, I don't worry about DTML tags getting messed up. Also, unless something has changed you need to use DTML somewhat for ZSQL methods. And anything that's tricky to do in DTML/ZPT should probably be in a Python script anyway. Frankly, I've created half a dozen Zope sites over the last four years, two of them fairly active medium-sized sites ( letsdating.jp and gamesocks.com ), and Zope is basically just a fancy-pants container for my Python scripts. It works beautifully. I know I'm not using the full power of Zope, but as a container for Python scripts and with the power of acquisition - one of my absolute favorite aspects of Zope 2 - it makes development a snap. Aaron ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
On Tuesday 27 November 2007 17:19, Martijn Faassen wrote: We need to identify some targets and see what resources we have to accomplish them. Of course this shouldn't degenerate into a long wishlist discussion, but let's see what kind of steps can be taken. I came to Zope as a newbie about 4 years ago. I used DTML from the word go because I wanted to use databases extensively and therefore ZSQL. Of course, when I started to get into difficulty I asked on this list. I got lambasted firstly for using DTML and secondly for seemingly wanting answers! I therefore became afraid of the list and the response I may get from questions so much so that I stopped asking. I learned the hard way - trial and error and reading whatever I could find -usually hard to find. I was therefore pleasantly surprised when I first asked a question on the Postgresql users list. Not only was the response friendly and helpful but many responders actually wrote code to solve my problem or to show me how to solve it. It is this sort of attitude that we should try to foster on this list. Everyone has to learn sometime - how about helping them with a little more kindness. Regards Garry ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, , Django, CherryPy
Hi Martijn and others. I don't see anything I like better, but have a nagging worry that Zope, and especially Zope 2, may become increasingly neglected as time goes by. I have to say +1 on this one. We still use Zope 2 for most of our projects, as the software is stable, mature and if you know how it works you can do anyhting with it, and you can do it very fast. I'm very pleased that some older products (including our own) from 5 or 6 year ago still work in the latest zope version, sometimes with some minor adjustments. But the core of Zope 2 has changed a lot, while still being compatible as much as possible. I think the Zope 2 developers and release manager(s) deserve a lot of credits and respect for that. But it's since Five that there is some active development happening on this platform. (And offcourse not to forget the need for Plone to have zope3 technologies available). Cleanup and some refactoring has been done, and some Products are now part of the core. You an find most of the documentation in interfaces files right now which is a good thing offcourse, and you can use zope3 technologies if you like, a much cleaner way of development then old skool Zope 2 products. I don't think the problem is activity on the Zope 2 front itself, but the community website zope.org which should convey this message of a mature Zope 2 platform with the availability of new technologies. But now it's a dead, outdated website which I think is sad because it's not reflecting what is actually happening. This sounds like something that could be potentially interesting for new new zope.org, which is currently in development So that's why I mention this quote : Martijn, I'm very curious about the status, plan or purpose of the new zope.org? I think if the new site gets rid of all the outdated stuff, learn from the plone.org website (or even use it as a boiler plate, they really did a great job I think), include some nice documentation based on tutorials like http://slinkp.com/~paul/pycon_2006/z2/notes.html and http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/five-zope3-walkthrough, for example (Phillip has some nice tutorials as well) it would feel so much better for all the Zope 2 developers who are still out there, and for the new developers who want to use it, but now have the feeling that Zope 2 is a dead end. -- Martijn Jacobs Four Digits, Internet Solutions a: Willemsplein 15-1 6811 KB Arnhem NL e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | web: http://www.fourdigits.nl tel: +31 (0)26 44 22 700 | fax: +31 (0)84 22 06 117 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, , Django, CherryPy
We could also consider putting them in some kind of collective-like SVN repository so that people can make changes when they need to. I think this is a great idea as it works with the Plone collective this way as well. -- Martijn Jacobs Four Digits, Internet Solutions a: Willemsplein 15-1 6811 KB Arnhem NL e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | web: http://www.fourdigits.nl tel: +31 (0)26 44 22 700 | fax: +31 (0)84 22 06 117 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
Rene B wrote: I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve researched quite a few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I’ve also Perhaps web.py can interest you then? Its not very much of framework (you actually write everything in Python, even making your own architectural decisions, and template language resembles Python also), but it requires almost no learning and dynamic site can be setup in no time. And webpy is not too hard as it is very minimalistic, so enjoy writing Python most of the time instead of working around some framework's peculiarities. Maybe after at least playing with that you will revisit other Python web application frameworks already knowing what you want. Regards, Roman Susi looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah. I’m beginning to think there’s nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I’m a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn’t have the time to get really proficient at it. I selected Python as a language of choice and that’s all I’ve used. I’ve written a few scripts . I’m interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you it’s impossible to select a tool. I’ve researched all the tools mentioned above. The most important thing in my decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic site. I don’t want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. Its not python. Not even close. Out of all the ones I’ve researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It’s easy. I know why ZPT has it’s advantages but for ease of use it doesn’t come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I’d be the only working on it meaning I’ll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic portions of it. So I don’t’ need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah. I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction it’s going in. Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t going anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support on it when needed and I’m sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead. Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok’s new plugins for any template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about template languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was use the one that you like. So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others over the one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they choose. Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard. I like Mod_python with PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I’ve seen. Yet Mod_Python has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular. The other frameworks have some good ideas. I like Karrigell but you just don’t know how long it will be supported.Gluon is cool but its new. Zope 3 is out of the question. Grok looks to me like another CherryPy. It may be easier the Zope 3 but it’s not easier then Zope 2. Plus I’ve yet to get it installed on my windows XP to play. I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many examples. Plus no auto generated content like you get in Zope 2. Yes some magic is good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out with.People like some magic. saves time. Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to me. So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it released after 2002. Plone is tooo much. There aren’t any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are there haven’t been touched for years. Zope 2 wiki seems dead. I was looking the other day for some type of auto CRUD for Zope 2. couldn’t find anyting. No one seems to be adding anything new to Zope 2 which scares me the most. If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it’s going to be around for awhile and have good support and new addons being added all of the time to help me. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) !DSPAM:474b8277286491564115247! ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy
On 11/27/07, Rene B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm beginning to think there's nothing out there for a newbie python programmer like myself. I'm a Network Admin that likes programming but doesn't have the time to get really proficient at it. This may be closer to the truth unfortunately. As greater benefits from tools come as you get more proficient in using them with time. I'm interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you it's impossible to select a tool. I've researched all the tools mentioned above. The most important thing in my decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the dynamic site. I don't want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new language. Its not python. Not even close. Out of all the ones I've researched I like Zope 2 the best. Not sure why. I want some thing easy. I like DTML. It's Stick to Zope 2 with DTML if that serves your purpose. It will serve you well. I think your problem is solved !!! easy. I know why ZPT has it's advantages but for ease of use it doesn't come close to DTML. Most people like me wont be building complex web sites and I'd be the only working on it meaning I'll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic See above. There is no real need for you to go to the latest stuff. You may go there naturally when it will be best. portions of it. So I don't' need to worry about an HTML editor getting confused with the dynamic languages mixed in blah blah blah. This is quite true that ZPT helps in such situations. It was designed with this objective. Nobody seems to be adding to zope 2 because the gurus have learnt some lessons from Zope2 and are hence developing something new from scratch (Zope 3). The principle remains: Find the best tool for your needs. HTH ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
