Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Tres Seaver
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Jim Pharis wrote:
> Yes, I'm running into missing bits in various places. So even though Z2.12
> is based on ZTK eggs, and ZTK eggs are designed using all the CA goodness, I
> still can't easily develop using those methods.

Going on Five years now, I have build building Z2 apps using the
"methods" (component architecture, ZCML-driven registration, views
instead of skins).  This period started with the release of Zope 2.8,
which included the Five product, making those techniques available to Z2
developers.

> So I'm left leaving this
> conversation thinking that I'm back to developing Products using the
> esoteric manage_* methods, even in 2.12.

The ZMI ia an application which has certain expectataions of content:
chiefly, that it expose a 'manage_options' attribute to tell the ZMI
what to do about tabs.  If you don't need to tweak your app inside the
ZMI, you don't need any of that.

The ZTK is a set of libraries, *not* another appserver / framework
designed to replace Zope2.  You can use as many of those libraries as
you like inside a Z2 app (modulo some possible dependency issues between
versinos of the libraries required by the current Z2 vs. those required
by a given version of the ZTK).


Tres.
- --
===
Tres Seaver  +1 540-429-0999  tsea...@palladion.com
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Jim Pharis
I know of Five but I must admit I'm not that well acquainted with it. On the
contrary, I was under the impression that Five was going to be falling out
of usefulness as ZTK was being integrated in Z2. Thanks for clearing this up
for me.

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Lennart Regebro  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 11:47, Jim Pharis  wrote:
> > What's my use case for developing Zope3ish/ZTKish in Zope2 instead of
> just
> > using Zope3? All the preceived benefits of Zope3 now available in Zope2
> well
> > still being able to use all our Zope 2 Products. I thought basing
> Zope2.12
> > on ZTK bridged the 2 worlds.
>
> Nah, it was bridged before, by Five. Now it's easier to update just
> one package and it's dependencies to later versions, and easier to
> install and use in buildouts and stuff.  A great leap forward. But
> using Zope3 stuff in Zope 2 has been possible since Zope 2.8. It's not
> completely compatible, but that's not what you are asking for eiher,
> if I understand you.
>
> --
> Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
> http://regebro.wordpress.com/
> +33 661 58 14 64
>
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 11:53, Jim Pharis  wrote:
> So the line you reference in site.zcml is the same for me, and it says look
> in package-includes/*-configure.zcml. That child dir wasn't actually created
> though so theres nothing in it.

That's correct. But your question was where that directory had gone.
Well, nowehere.

>>> But what is missing is the package-includes directory that
>> > provides the wiring to zcml directives in the varies packages.

Yup, it's missing. But all you need to do is create it.

>>> Why are those configurations missing from Zope2.12.2 etc/?

They aren't. Only the directory is. If you are asking where all the
default bindings are, they are on Zope2 itself, to a large extent in
Products/Five.

> So developing in Z3 had several perceived benefits no? The problem is that
> in many cases existing projects couldn't just move to Z3 and start using the
> CA. From Z3 development was born ZTK, a modular CA implementation

Zope 3 was always modular. It was released as one package up until
3.4, where is was released as separate packages. ZTK is *not* those
separate packages, but a subset of them, created only this year. More
specifically, the ZTK is *not* a compatibility layer between Zope 2
and Zope 3.

> that Z2 could now leverage, and I thought in theory all the Z3 CA goodness 
> was now
> brought to us in Z2 development.

That has been available since Zope 2.8.

> I have several existing Z2 Products that aren't going anywhere. Now I want
> to start developing new stuff using CA paradigms in Z2.

Excellent!

> This seems like it should now be possible because Z2.12 itself is now built 
> on ZTK.

It's possibly with older Zopes too. Although I would avoid 2.8 and 2.9
if I where you. Five was still in heavy development then, it has
cooled down quite a bit since. :-)

> However,
> I'm running into problems. For example, zcml directives such as the one in
> zope.app.container-3.8.0-py2.6.egg/zope/app/container/browser/meta.zcml:
> name="containerViews" aren't wired into Z2.12 it seems. Trying to use
>  example. Well I could start wiring all this stuff myself, it seems like that
> should be done already.

Yeah, generally it's tricky to use zope.app.anything in Zope 2.

> I still can't easily develop using those methods.

Yes, you can. But many of the Zope 3 eggs are built for Zope 3 and
Zope 3 only. Those can't be used outside Zope 3. The ZTK doesn't
change that. zope.app.container is one of those. It's currently a
dependency for ZTK, but as I understand it, that is to be changed. The
reuseable parts of zope.app.container are to be moved out to
zope.container.

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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 11:47, Jim Pharis  wrote:
> What's my use case for developing Zope3ish/ZTKish in Zope2 instead of just
> using Zope3? All the preceived benefits of Zope3 now available in Zope2 well
> still being able to use all our Zope 2 Products. I thought basing Zope2.12
> on ZTK bridged the 2 worlds.

Nah, it was bridged before, by Five. Now it's easier to update just
one package and it's dependencies to later versions, and easier to
install and use in buildouts and stuff.  A great leap forward. But
using Zope3 stuff in Zope 2 has been possible since Zope 2.8. It's not
completely compatible, but that's not what you are asking for eiher,
if I understand you.

-- 
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http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
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Jim Pharis wrote:
>   for="Test.interfaces.INewTestSite"
>contents="zope.ManageContent"
>index="zope.View"
>add="zope.ManageContent"
>/>
> 
> ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File
> "/home/binbrain/Programs/Zope2.12/instance/lib/python/Test/browser/configure.zcml",
> line 14.2
> ConfigurationError: ('Unknown directive', u'
> http://namespaces.zope.org/browser', u'containerViews')
> 
> So containerView is declared in
> ./zope.app.container-3.8.0-py2.6.egg/zope/app/container/browser/meta.zcml
> and I proceeded to just add it etc/site.zcml. That's when I noticed that the
> package-includes were by in large missing. At least it looks that way.

Not all Zope 3 ZCML directives work in Zope 2. You need to look at the
Five product included with Zope 2 which provides Zope 2-shims for many
Zope 3 directives, especially those involving browser views.

jens

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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Jim Pharis
So far I had just tried developing a site and allow it to be Added and
Viewed in the ZMI.

In the Z2.12 instance/etc/site.zcml I have...



In the browser dir I put a configure.zcml.

  

ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File
"/home/binbrain/Programs/Zope2.12/instance/lib/python/Test/browser/configure.zcml",
line 14.2
ConfigurationError: ('Unknown directive', u'
http://namespaces.zope.org/browser', u'containerViews')

So containerView is declared in
./zope.app.container-3.8.0-py2.6.egg/zope/app/container/browser/meta.zcml
and I proceeded to just add it etc/site.zcml. That's when I noticed that the
package-includes were by in large missing. At least it looks that way.

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Jens Vagelpohl  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Jim Pharis wrote:
> > Yes, I'm running into missing bits in various places. So even though
> Z2.12
> > is based on ZTK eggs, and ZTK eggs are designed using all the CA
> goodness, I
> > still can't easily develop using those methods. So I'm left leaving this
> > conversation thinking that I'm back to developing Products using the
> > esoteric manage_* methods, even in 2.12.
>
> The component architecture is fully entrenched within Zope 2.12 and you
> can use it just like you were able to use it in Zope 3. However, since
> the ZTK is not Zope 3, you won't have all Zope 3 facilities available,
> that's a fact of life. Why you conclude that you're somehow forced to
> use "esoteric manage_* methods" I am note sure.
>
> Maybe someone can help if you mention specific code where you think you
> cannot develop the Zope 3 way.
>
> jens
>
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
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Jim Pharis wrote:
> Yes, I'm running into missing bits in various places. So even though Z2.12
> is based on ZTK eggs, and ZTK eggs are designed using all the CA goodness, I
> still can't easily develop using those methods. So I'm left leaving this
> conversation thinking that I'm back to developing Products using the
> esoteric manage_* methods, even in 2.12.

The component architecture is fully entrenched within Zope 2.12 and you
can use it just like you were able to use it in Zope 3. However, since
the ZTK is not Zope 3, you won't have all Zope 3 facilities available,
that's a fact of life. Why you conclude that you're somehow forced to
use "esoteric manage_* methods" I am note sure.

Maybe someone can help if you mention specific code where you think you
cannot develop the Zope 3 way.

jens

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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Andreas Jung
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Jim Pharis wrote:
> Yes, I'm running into missing bits in various places. So even
> though Z2.12 is based on ZTK eggs, and ZTK eggs are designed using
> all the CA goodness, I still can't easily develop using those
> methods. So I'm left leaving this conversation thinking that I'm
> back to developing Products using the esoteric manage_* methods,
> even in 2.12.
>

Zope 2.12 is *not* based on the ZTK. Zope 2.12 uses a wild mix of
Zope 3 modules. Zope 2.13 will use the ZTK.

- -aj
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Jim Pharis
Yes, I'm running into missing bits in various places. So even though Z2.12
is based on ZTK eggs, and ZTK eggs are designed using all the CA goodness, I
still can't easily develop using those methods. So I'm left leaving this
conversation thinking that I'm back to developing Products using the
esoteric manage_* methods, even in 2.12.

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Jens Vagelpohl  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Jim Pharis wrote:
> > I have several existing Z2 Products that aren't going anywhere. I still
> need
> > these. I can't just move to Z3 and leave our existing Z2 Products behind.
>
> There seems to be a misunderstanding what the ZTK is and what it isn't.
>
> The ZTK is *not* Zope 3, it is a bundle of libraries distilled from what
> used to be Zope 3. It does not include all of Zope 3, but those bits
> that were deemed to be useful for re-use. If there is any expectation
> that you can take a Zope 3 application and it will run unter Zope 2.12
> "because it's based on the ZTK" then that's wrong. You will run into
> missing bits.
>
> jens
>
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Andreas Jung
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Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
> Jim Pharis wrote:
>> I have several existing Z2 Products that aren't going anywhere.
>> I
> still need
>> these. I can't just move to Z3 and leave our existing Z2
>> Products
> behind.
>
> There seems to be a misunderstanding what the ZTK is and what it
> isn't.
>
> The ZTK is *not* Zope 3, it is a bundle of libraries distilled from
> what used to be Zope 3. It does not include all of Zope 3, but
> those bits that were deemed to be useful for re-use. If there is
> any expectation that you can take a Zope 3 application and it will
> run unter Zope 2.12 "because it's based on the ZTK" then that's
> wrong. You will run into missing bits.
That's part of Zope communication problem: what is what and what is
it for. Reminds that I have to work on the concept for www.zope.org
relaunch :->

Andreas
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Jens Vagelpohl
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Jim Pharis wrote:
> I have several existing Z2 Products that aren't going anywhere. I still need
> these. I can't just move to Z3 and leave our existing Z2 Products behind.

There seems to be a misunderstanding what the ZTK is and what it isn't.

The ZTK is *not* Zope 3, it is a bundle of libraries distilled from what
used to be Zope 3. It does not include all of Zope 3, but those bits
that were deemed to be useful for re-use. If there is any expectation
that you can take a Zope 3 application and it will run unter Zope 2.12
"because it's based on the ZTK" then that's wrong. You will run into
missing bits.

jens

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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Jim Pharis
I have several existing Z2 Products that aren't going anywhere. I still need
these. I can't just move to Z3 and leave our existing Z2 Products behind.

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 6:40 AM, Andreas Jung  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Jim Pharis wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I want to start developing new stuff using CA paradigms in Z2.
>
> So *why* Zope 2?
>
> The ZTK/Zope 3 modules provide a much cleaner
> basis for new projects than the Zope 2 app-server. So what is
> in Zope 3/ZTK missing? Why do you need a cruft of infrastructure
> for your new project?
>
> - -aj
>
>
> > This seems like it should now be possible because Z2.12 itself is
> > now built on ZTK. However, I'm running into problems. For example,
> > zcml directives such as the one in
> > zope.app.container-3.8.0-py2.6.egg/zope/app/container/browser/meta.zcml:
> >
> >
> name="containerViews" aren't wired into Z2.12 it seems. Trying to
> > use  > That's just 1 example. Well I could start wiring all this stuff
> > myself, it seems like that should be done already.
> >
> > - Jim
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Andreas Jung  > > wrote:
> >
> > Jim Pharis wrote:
> >> What's my use case for developing Zope3ish/ZTKish in Zope2
> >> instead of just using Zope3? All the preceived benefits of Zope3
> >> now available in Zope2 well still being able to use all our Zope
> >> 2 Products. I thought basing Zope2.12 on ZTK bridged the 2
> >> worlds.
> >
> >
> > Do you want to develop a minimal ZTK/Zope-3 based application? So
> > you don't deal with the 10-year old code cruft of Zope 2 - or? What
> > is in the Zope 3/ZTK modules not missing?
> >
> > -aj
>
> - --
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Andreas Jung
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Jim Pharis wrote:

>

> I want to start developing new stuff using CA paradigms in Z2.

So *why* Zope 2?

The ZTK/Zope 3 modules provide a much cleaner
basis for new projects than the Zope 2 app-server. So what is
in Zope 3/ZTK missing? Why do you need a cruft of infrastructure
for your new project?

- -aj


> This seems like it should now be possible because Z2.12 itself is
> now built on ZTK. However, I'm running into problems. For example,
> zcml directives such as the one in
> zope.app.container-3.8.0-py2.6.egg/zope/app/container/browser/meta.zcml:
>
>
name="containerViews" aren't wired into Z2.12 it seems. Trying to
> use  That's just 1 example. Well I could start wiring all this stuff
> myself, it seems like that should be done already.
>
> - Jim
>
> On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Andreas Jung  > wrote:
>
> Jim Pharis wrote:
>> What's my use case for developing Zope3ish/ZTKish in Zope2
>> instead of just using Zope3? All the preceived benefits of Zope3
>> now available in Zope2 well still being able to use all our Zope
>> 2 Products. I thought basing Zope2.12 on ZTK bridged the 2
>> worlds.
>
>
> Do you want to develop a minimal ZTK/Zope-3 based application? So
> you don't deal with the 10-year old code cruft of Zope 2 - or? What
> is in the Zope 3/ZTK modules not missing?
>
> -aj

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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Jim Pharis
So developing in Z3 had several perceived benefits no? The problem is that
in many cases existing projects couldn't just move to Z3 and start using the
CA. From Z3 development was born ZTK, a modular CA implementation that Z2
could now leverage, and I thought in theory all the Z3 CA goodness was now
brought to us in Z2 development.

I have several existing Z2 Products that aren't going anywhere. Now I want
to start developing new stuff using CA paradigms in Z2. This seems like it
should now be possible because Z2.12 itself is now built on ZTK. However,
I'm running into problems. For example, zcml directives such as the one in
zope.app.container-3.8.0-py2.6.egg/zope/app/container/browser/meta.zcml:
name="containerViews" aren't wired into Z2.12 it seems. Trying to use
 wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Jim Pharis wrote:
> > What's my use case for developing Zope3ish/ZTKish in Zope2 instead
> > of just using Zope3? All the preceived benefits of Zope3 now
> > available in Zope2 well still being able to use all our Zope 2
> > Products. I thought basing Zope2.12 on ZTK bridged the 2 worlds.
> >
>
> Do you want to develop a minimal ZTK/Zope-3 based application?
> So you don't deal with the 10-year old code cruft of Zope 2 -
> or? What is in the Zope 3/ZTK modules not missing?
>
> - -aj
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Jim Pharis
So the line you reference in site.zcml is the same for me, and it says look
in package-includes/*-configure.zcml. That child dir wasn't actually created
though so theres nothing in it.

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 4:47 AM, Lennart Regebro  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 01:28, Jim Pharis  wrote:
> > I'm trying to wrap my head around what the changes in Zope2.12 can mean
> for
> > how I develop in Zope2 now. I've developed things in Zope3 and am getting
> > stuck attempting the same methods in Zope2.12. So I see now that etc/ now
> > has a site.zcml. But what is missing is the package-includes directory
> that
> > provides the wiring to zcml directives in the varies packages. Why are
> those
> > configurations missing from Zope2.12.2 etc/?
>
> They are?
>
> $ /opt/python26/bin/virtualenv z12
> $ cd z12
> $ bin/easy_install Zope2
> $ bin/mkzopeinstance -d testinst
> $ cd testinst
> $ more etc/site.zcml
>
> ...
> 
>  
> ...
>
> Looks like it's there. OK, so the directory doesn't exist, but you can
> create it.
>
> Most people today develop using buildout, where the zope instance
> recipe will create the snippets for you. But that's a different topic,
> really.
>
> --
> Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
> http://regebro.wordpress.com/
> +33 661 58 14 64
>
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Andreas Jung
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Jim Pharis wrote:
> What's my use case for developing Zope3ish/ZTKish in Zope2 instead
> of just using Zope3? All the preceived benefits of Zope3 now
> available in Zope2 well still being able to use all our Zope 2
> Products. I thought basing Zope2.12 on ZTK bridged the 2 worlds.
>

Do you want to develop a minimal ZTK/Zope-3 based application?
So you don't deal with the 10-year old code cruft of Zope 2 -
or? What is in the Zope 3/ZTK modules not missing?

- -aj
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Jim Pharis
What's my use case for developing Zope3ish/ZTKish in Zope2 instead of just
using Zope3? All the preceived benefits of Zope3 now available in Zope2 well
still being able to use all our Zope 2 Products. I thought basing Zope2.12
on ZTK bridged the 2 worlds.

On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 2:10 AM, Andreas Jung  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Jim Pharis wrote:
> > Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the implications of basing Zope2.12
> > on ZTK eggs. I was under the impression it would allow sites to be
> > developed in a similar way  to how its done in Zope3, ie placing
> > your site in instance/lib/python/ and wiring it all together
> > using the site.zcml now present in the Zope2.12 instance/etc dir.
> > It seems like it should be possible, but maybe not.
> >
> Please describe you usecase for using Zope 2 for building a Zope3/ZTK-ish
> application and not using the related Zope 3/ZTK components?
>
> - -aj
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-25 Thread Lennart Regebro
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 01:28, Jim Pharis  wrote:
> I'm trying to wrap my head around what the changes in Zope2.12 can mean for
> how I develop in Zope2 now. I've developed things in Zope3 and am getting
> stuck attempting the same methods in Zope2.12. So I see now that etc/ now
> has a site.zcml. But what is missing is the package-includes directory that
> provides the wiring to zcml directives in the varies packages. Why are those
> configurations missing from Zope2.12.2 etc/?

They are?

$ /opt/python26/bin/virtualenv z12
$ cd z12
$ bin/easy_install Zope2
$ bin/mkzopeinstance -d testinst
$ cd testinst
$ more etc/site.zcml

...

  
...

Looks like it's there. OK, so the directory doesn't exist, but you can
create it.

Most people today develop using buildout, where the zope instance
recipe will create the snippets for you. But that's a different topic,
really.

-- 
Lennart Regebro: Python, Zope, Plone, Grok
http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-24 Thread Andreas Jung
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Jim Pharis wrote:
> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the implications of basing Zope2.12
> on ZTK eggs. I was under the impression it would allow sites to be
> developed in a similar way  to how its done in Zope3, ie placing
> your site in instance/lib/python/ and wiring it all together
> using the site.zcml now present in the Zope2.12 instance/etc dir.
> It seems like it should be possible, but maybe not.
>
Please describe you usecase for using Zope 2 for building a Zope3/ZTK-ish
application and not using the related Zope 3/ZTK components?

- -aj
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-24 Thread Jim Pharis
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the implications of basing Zope2.12 on ZTK
eggs. I was under the impression it would allow sites to be developed in a
similar way  to how its done in Zope3, ie placing your site in
instance/lib/python/ and wiring it all together using the site.zcml
now present in the Zope2.12 instance/etc dir. It seems like it should be
possible, but maybe not.

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Andreas Jung  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Jim Pharis wrote:
> > I'm trying to wrap my head around what the changes in Zope2.12 can
> > mean for how I develop in Zope2 now. I've developed things in
> > Zope3 and am getting stuck attempting the same methods in Zope2.12.
> > So I see now that etc/ now has a site.zcml. But what is missing is
> > the package-includes directory that provides the wiring to zcml
> > directives in the varies packages. Why are those configurations
> > missing from Zope2.12.2 etc/?
> Sorry, I can not follow - but Zope 2 and Zope 3 are not compatible in
> any way.
> - -aj
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Re: [Zope] Zope2.12

2009-12-24 Thread Andreas Jung
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Jim Pharis wrote:
> I'm trying to wrap my head around what the changes in Zope2.12 can
> mean for how I develop in Zope2 now. I've developed things in
> Zope3 and am getting stuck attempting the same methods in Zope2.12.
> So I see now that etc/ now has a site.zcml. But what is missing is
> the package-includes directory that provides the wiring to zcml
> directives in the varies packages. Why are those configurations
> missing from Zope2.12.2 etc/?
Sorry, I can not follow - but Zope 2 and Zope 3 are not compatible in
any way.
- -aj
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