Thanks for the input.
Replies from the Seattle Python users group (SEAPY) have been generally
positive. Adding a hot key for "say scope" is being called "pretty easy". In
discussion with Louie he has told me this is all he really needs to be able to
use the language. The unique "feature" of Python that brought this up is that
the syntax depends on the white space characters that form the indent level for
the block structure. I.E. you don't have a brace/begin to tell you which code
block you are in. Additional complications include variable numbers of space
characters for a given block level. Regardless of the language it seems to
point out that a hot key to "say" the indent/block you are in would be very
helpful. Heck, I'd love that on the status bar too even though I can still
read the screen most of the time.
I'd guess that if someone were to write a proposal for this it might even get
funding (big hint).
-Fred-
On Feb 20, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Andreas Stefik wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Oh sure, and our tests shouldn't be taken as gospel, by any means. We
> try to take some measurements and see what happens, but in practice,
> there's a lot of variation in the community. Indeed, everyone is
> different, and this kind of stuff doesn't account for everyone.
>
> Stefik
>
> On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dr. Stefik,
>>
>> I will just have to see how the added accessibility features assist me then
>> when they are fully implemented. I am looking forward to finding out how
>> well they work for me.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Andreas Stefik
>> Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 4:50 PM
>> To: Sodbeans
>> Subject: Re: [Sodbeans-developer] Blind programmers and Python
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> While it's a reasonable point, my lab has actually conducted a formal
>> empirical study on this issue, which was recently accepted for
>> publication in the International Journal of Human Computer Studies.
>> The article isn't out yet, but it turns out that the evidence we
>> gathered does not appear to support your claim. Specifically, we found
>> that, for a variant of the C programming language at least, not
>> explicitly outputting scoping information to the user lowered the
>> user's ability to understand the scope of constructs by about 20%, and
>> that this result was statistically significant and invariant of
>> programming experience level.
>>
>> We did not try the same test with a Python variant. With that said, I
>> strongly suspect that the effect would be even stronger for that
>> language, as it's pretty difficult, I suspect, to understand scoping
>> relationships in Python in audio, because of the white space based
>> aspect of the language. The study itself is very complicated, so I
>> don't want to go into details about how everything was measured and
>> all that, but there's some food for thought. In other words, the best
>> evidence we've been able to gather so far suggests that this issue
>> does matter, and that it matters by about 20%, at least for the tests
>> we conducted.
>>
>> Further, if you get all these accessibility features together, it can
>> make a big dent in aggregate. Specifically, we found that adding
>> talking debuggers, these scoping cues, and other things all at once
>> cuts almost exactly in half the amount of time it takes to debug a
>> simple program in audio. That's huge! So, in sum, these little
>> additions don't necessarily matter a lot individually, but they add
>> up, and making quite a few minor tweaks and modifications can make a
>> big difference in terms of accessibility in the long run.
>>
>> Stefik
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> That's not a bad idea to incorporate the Python editor into Sodbeans. If
>>> it
>>> can work out very well, that would be great. Maybe have it announce the
>>> level of indentation. If the main difficulty for blind programmers is
>>> indentation though, then that tells me that they have not learned enough
>>> formatting techniques from word processors from the independent living
>>> training center they chose. Learning a word processor inside and out
>>> helps
>>> with learning how to maintain indentation. Nevertheless, I still
>>> encourage
>>> the blind to try their own research because they will learn what options
>>> are
>>> available to them in case for whatever reason Sodbeans is not their
>>> preference.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Andreas Stefik
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 4:03 PM
>>> To: Sodbeans
>>> Subject: Re: [Sodbeans-developer] Blind programmers and Python
>>>
>>> Fred,
>>>
>>> It would be pretty easy to add in an accessible Python editor reader
>>> into Sodbeans, if that interests you, as our editor features are
>>> pretty dang flexible nowadays, and they already hook into all of the
>>> neat visual features in NetBeans. We had a request for that a while
>>> back, although only one, so we're working on other editor features
>>> right now, like speeding up the text-to-speech engine, adding Linux
>>> support, and possibly better compatibility with screen magnification
>>> utilities.
>>>
>>> Hope that helps,
>>>
>>> Stefik
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Fred McLain <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> It has come to my attention that Python is one of the more difficult
>>>> languages for blind programmers to use due to it's indent level code
>>>> block
>>>> structure. I'm fielding a question or two from a blind developer who
>>>> would like to use Python in his projects. Does anyone on these lists
>>>> know
>>>> of a serious effort to create a Python editor or screen reader for the
>>>> visually impaired?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> -Fred-
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
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>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sodbeans-developer mailing list
>>> [email protected]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sodbeans-developer
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sodbeans-developer mailing list
>>> [email protected]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sodbeans-developer
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sodbeans-developer mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sodbeans-developer
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
>> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
>> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
>> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sodbeans-developer mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sodbeans-developer
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The ultimate all-in-one performance toolkit: Intel(R) Parallel Studio XE:
> Pinpoint memory and threading errors before they happen.
> Find and fix more than 250 security defects in the development cycle.
> Locate bottlenecks in serial and parallel code that limit performance.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-dev2devfeb
> _______________________________________________
> Sodbeans-developer mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sodbeans-developer
>
