Hi John, I suppose with turnkey solutions you mean individually programmed solutions?
In my opinion the main benefit of SMW is implementation time. I can offer our clients sophisticated web database solutions, calculating in days, not weeks (or even months)! regards, Bernhard ----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----- > Let's take a look at the Semantic MediaWiki FAQ: > <quote> > What are the alternatives to SMW? > > We truly believe that there's no other software yet, either free or > proprietary, that enables flexible, collaborative data structures in > the way > that Semantic MediaWiki does. [snip] > > In the big picture, the real competitor to Semantic MediaWiki is every > usage-specific so-called "turnkey > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnkey>" > application meant to store a specific type of data. We would like to > see the > users of many of these applications consider switching to SMW as a > cheap, > flexible alternative. > </quote> > > So, if you want Semantic MediaWiki to be able to compete with > 'turnkey' > applications, you are going to have to make it capable of competing. > I've > not only USED a lot of those 'turnkey' applications, I've been on the > development teams that have CREATED several of them. > > Don't get me wrong, I agree that sometimes a person's idea of of how > to go > about doing something is not necessarily the "right" way of doing it. > But > in this case, you are saying that it can't be done, and moreover > doesn't > NEED to be done. > > If you seriously want SMW to be a viable alternative to "turnkey" > applications, it has a lot of features that have to be added. A more > powerful query language that can support calculated output is one. > Dependent fields in forms is another. Something that a real developer > can > actually build stuff on top of without pulling their hair out is > probably > the biggest. > > So, there may not be a solution to my immediate problem. I'm cool with > that, this is a work in progress. But seriously, calculated fields > needs to > get on the roadmap for the future. That is a big, gaping hole in SMW, > one > that if it were plugged would make life a whole lot easier for a lot > of > people. > > -- John > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Yaron Koren <yaro...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Sorry, what I meant was just that, at this point in time in the > > development > > of SMW, SF and the rest, when there are feature requests that are > > unusual in > > some way, my experience is that they can usually be solved more > > easily, and > > in a nicer way, with either changes to the data structure, or an > > alternate > > approach. Not always, but usually. > > > > In your case, given that I now know what you're trying to do (make a > > dropdown for forms in an "edit category" form), I can suggest a good > > alternative: you can use "autocomplete on namespace" instead - it'll > > show > > autocompletion instead of a dropdown, but on the other hand, if you > > use it > > with the "combobox" input type (not available yet in SF, but coming, > > I > > believe, later this week :) ), it'll function quite a bit like a > > dropdown. > > Though even without the combobox, I'd say that that's probably the > > best > > alternative. > > > > To the general philosophical issue - every software application ever > > written lacks features that it would be potentially useful to have; > > that's > > just the nature of software (or of life, really). > > > > -Yaron > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 8:58 AM, John Arrowwood <j...@irie-inc.com> > > wrote: > > > >> What a very interesting response. Let me see if I have this > >> straight: > >> You can't think of any good reason why someone would want to do > >> something, > >> and when someone says they want to, your reaction is to attack > >> their choice > >> of organizing their data? I think the problem may be that you are > >> still > >> thinking wiki, whereas I'm using MediaWiki as a platform for > >> developing a > >> data management system. > >> > >> So, what is the actual place where I'm trying to do this? I created > >> a > >> Form to help edit Category pages. On the form, I put a dropdown > >> which lists > >> all of the Structured Documents defined in the system. If the user > >> selects > >> a structured document, then the template looks up everything it > >> needs to > >> know from the Structured Document definition page. Likewise, there > >> is a > >> dropdown that lists all of the forms in the system, so you can > >> select the > >> form to use to edit pages in that category (if you didn't select a > >> structured document). The purpose of all of this is to make it > >> easier for > >> non-technical users to define/edit categories. > >> > >> But the query for forms returns everything looking like: > >> [[:Form:xyz|Form:xyz]], which means that is what shows up in the > >> dropdown. > >> What SHOULD show up in the dropdown is "xyz", as that is all the > >> user needs > >> to see. > >> > >> But in general, I can think of a million reasons why you would need > >> to > >> populate a dropdown with something other than raw page names. > >> > >> 1. A list of users, displayed as Last Name, First > >> 2. A list of open defects, showing defect ID number followed by the > >> summary > >> 3. All open/active User Stories, listing the user story text > >> 4. A list of teams, taken from their team pages > >> > >> Bottom-line: There is a very real need to do this kind of thing. > >> > >> Which means that being "out of luck" means that Semantic MediaWiki > >> is not > >> really ready for prime-time. Is that really the message you want to > >> send to > >> the world? > >> > >> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Yaron Koren <yaro...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> No, you can't do any of these things, so I guess you're out of > >>> luck. > >>> > >>> Personally, I think the fact that you're asking about these might > >>> indicate a non-ideal data structure, which is why I was asking > >>> about data > >>> structure before; but that's a matter of opinion. > >>> > >>> -Yaron > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 6:30 PM, John Arrowwood > >>> <j...@irie-inc.com>wrote: > >>> > >>>> The data structure is not important. What is important is that I > >>>> want > >>>> to return something other than a page name. The current method of > >>>> using a > >>>> concept as inputs to a dropdown does not accept anything other > >>>> than a page > >>>> name. Only the page names are used to populate the dropdown, as > >>>> best as I > >>>> can tell... > >>>> > >>>> Imagine it like this: Suppose you had a collection of pages, all > >>>> in the > >>>> same category. Suppose you wanted to have a dropdown where the > >>>> values are > >>>> the page names, but converted to upper case. How would you do > >>>> that? > >>>> > >>>> How about if you had a collection of pages and sub-pages, and you > >>>> wanted > >>>> to return only the sub-page name, without the base page? How > >>>> would you do > >>>> that? So if you had "foo/bar" and "foo/blip" and "foo/goo", and > >>>> you wanted > >>>> the dropdown to include the values "bar" and "blip" and "goo". > >>>> How would > >>>> you do that? > >>>> > >>>> Or if you had a collection of pages in a particular namespace > >>>> (other > >>>> than the main namespace), and because it is redundant to show the > >>>> namespace > >>>> name over and over again, you want to show the page name without > >>>> the > >>>> namespace. Again, the contents of the dropdown should be > >>>> populated from a > >>>> query, but the actual appearance of each item should be something > >>>> other than > >>>> the actual page names. It might be, for example, an attribute on > >>>> the page, > >>>> or a function executed against the page name. > >>>> > >>>> That is the root of the problem. I tried everything I could find > >>>> to be > >>>> able to make that happen. The closest thing I could come up with > >>>> was > >>>> putting a query on the property page that used a template to > >>>> control the > >>>> allowed values. But as you yourself said, then it doesn't update > >>>> the values > >>>> unless you 'edit' the property page. That is not a viable > >>>> alternative. > >>>> Neither is having to 'purge' the property page. > >>>> > >>>> So, how does one put user-friendly values in dropdowns that are > >>>> the > >>>> result of a query? Or can you? > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Yaron Koren <yaro...@gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Alex, > >>>>> > >>>>> John - in a sense, this extension might be helpful for you as > >>>>> well; > >>>>> though I'm always sure there's a better way for you to do > >>>>> whatever it is > >>>>> you're trying to do; though, not knowing your data structure, I > >>>>> don't know > >>>>> what that is. > >>>>> > >>>>> -Yaron > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Alex Kozak < > >>>>> ako...@creativecommons.org> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Has there been any discussion about ways around the data update > >>>>>> issue? > >>>>>> Maybe there could be a way for SMW to run the data > >>>>>> repair/upgrade in the > >>>>>> background? I've run into this annoyance countless times. It > >>>>>> would be nice > >>>>>> not to have to turn off page caching for the whole wiki. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> AK > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Yaron Koren > >>>>>> <yaro...@gmail.com>wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi John, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> That doesn't sound like a defect - regardless of what you see > >>>>>>> on the > >>>>>>> property page, the actual semantic data (allowed values, in > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>> case) > >>>>>>> doesn't get updated until there's some sort of update action > >>>>>>> taken, > >>>>>>> like a > >>>>>>> page save. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In any case, that's not the ideal way to do it - you should > >>>>>>> instead > >>>>>>> define > >>>>>>> an SMW "concept" that holds that query, and then use either > >>>>>>> "values > >>>>>>> from > >>>>>>> concept" or "autocomplete on concept" in the form input > >>>>>>> (probably the > >>>>>>> former). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -Yaron > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 12:50 PM, John Arrowwood > >>>>>>> <j...@irie-inc.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I have a sequence of pages that all have a common base page, > >>>>>>> "Structured > >>>>>>> > Documents". So, for example, I have Structured > >>>>>>> > Documents/Term for > >>>>>>> the page > >>>>>>> > that has the definition of a glossary Term. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > I created a property. The definition of that property > >>>>>>> > includes a > >>>>>>> query > >>>>>>> > that > >>>>>>> > returns all of those structured documents, listing only > >>>>>>> > their name > >>>>>>> without > >>>>>>> > the Structured Documents prefix. The idea was that the > >>>>>>> > property > >>>>>>> will be a > >>>>>>> > dropdown on the appropriate form which shows a cleaned-up > >>>>>>> > version > >>>>>>> of the > >>>>>>> > page names. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > The intention is that as soon as I added a new Structured > >>>>>>> > Document, > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> > property would update its 'allowed' list, and the new > >>>>>>> > document > >>>>>>> would appear > >>>>>>> > in the dropdown. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > In reality, I have to go to the page for that property, make > >>>>>>> > a > >>>>>>> meaningless > >>>>>>> > change, then click Save in order for the change to be picked > >>>>>>> > up. > >>>>>>> Even > >>>>>>> > though I can go to the page, click Purge, and see the new > >>>>>>> > item in > >>>>>>> the list, > >>>>>>> > that alone is not enough. I have to edit and save before the > >>>>>>> > new > >>>>>>> item(s) > >>>>>>> > appear in the dropdown of a form. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > So the defect is that even though you view the property page > >>>>>>> > and > >>>>>>> see the > >>>>>>> > list of allowed values, the form is not picking up the new > >>>>>>> > list of > >>>>>>> allowed > >>>>>>> > values. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > However, the real NEED here is a way of associating a form > >>>>>>> > on a > >>>>>>> page with a > >>>>>>> > queried list of values. Unfortunately, I have tried in vain > >>>>>>> > to do > >>>>>>> that. > >>>>>>> > If > >>>>>>> > I put a template call in the default= part of the field > >>>>>>> > definition, > >>>>>>> it > >>>>>>> > isn't > >>>>>>> > treated as a template, and so the user sees it as a > >>>>>>> > template, not > >>>>>>> as a list > >>>>>>> > of values. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > What is the proper way of accomplishing this goal? > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > -- > >>>>>>> > John Arrowwood > >>>>>>> > John (at) Irie (dash) Inc (dot) com > >>>>>>> > John (at) Arrowwood Photography (dot) com > >>>>>>> > John (at) Hanlons Razor (dot) com > >>>>>>> > -- > >>>>>>> > http://www.irie-inc.com/ > >>>>>>> > http://arrowwood.blogspot.com/ > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>> > This SF.net email is sponsored by > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Make an app they can't live without > >>>>>>> > Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge > >>>>>>> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev > >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> > Semediawiki-user mailing list > >>>>>>> > semediawiki-u...@lists.sourceforge.net > >>>>>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>> This SF.net email is sponsored by > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Make an app they can't live without > >>>>>>> Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge > >>>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list > >>>>>>> semediawiki-u...@lists.sourceforge.net > >>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Alex Kozak > >>>>>> Program Assistant > >>>>>> Creative Commons > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> John Arrowwood > >>>> John (at) Irie (dash) Inc (dot) com > >>>> John (at) Arrowwood Photography (dot) com > >>>> John (at) Hanlons Razor (dot) com > >>>> -- > >>>> http://www.irie-inc.com/ > >>>> http://arrowwood.blogspot.com/ > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com > >>> > >>> -- > >>> John Arrowwood > >>> John (at) Irie (dash) Inc (dot) com > >>> John (at) Arrowwood Photography (dot) com > >>> John (at) Hanlons Razor (dot) com > >>> -- > >>> http://www.irie-inc.com/ > >>> http://arrowwood.blogspot.com/ > >>> <http://wikiworks.com> > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > > WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com > > > > > > -- > John Arrowwood > John (at) Irie (dash) Inc (dot) com > John (at) Arrowwood Photography (dot) com > John (at) Hanlons Razor (dot) com > -- > http://www.irie-inc.com/ > http://arrowwood.blogspot.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > This SF.net email is sponsored by > > Make an app they can't live without > Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge > http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > semediawiki-u...@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This SF.net email is sponsored by Make an app they can't live without Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev _______________________________________________ Semediawiki-devel mailing list Semediawiki-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
