On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Stefano Bagnara <[email protected]> wrote:
> David Jencks ha scritto:
>> On May 20, 2009, at 7:44 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Stefano Bagnara <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Robert Burrell Donkin ha scritto:
>>>>> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Stefano Bagnara <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Robert Burrell Donkin ha scritto:
>>>>> this means that sometime soon i won't be running pheonix locally. most
>>>>> other mail application developers (who post on list) also seem to be
>>>>> using the spring deployment.
>>>>
>>>> let me clarify that I think that moving to another container is a good
>>>> thing. But I don't think that moving to any other container is good. A
>>>> choice has to be made and it will be critical for the future. OSGi seems
>>>> to be a good option but I still have to see a good configuration service
>>>> for osgi components. I don't know OSGi enough to understand if this is a
>>>> limit in the "specification" or something that simply has not be done,
>>>> or something that exists but I don't know.
>>
>> I'm not 100% sure I know what you mean by a configuration service for
>> osgi components but...
>
> User interface to application level configuration.
> Whenever you embrace a modular framework the main issue is to keep a
> central place for the user to configure your modular application.
> OSGi try to provide Preferences but IMHO they are too limited or simply
> I've yet to see a good usage of them.
> Eclipse did something along this, but last time I looked at it (2 years
> ago) most of it was eclipse specific code and not usable outside from
> eclipse.

felix has an OSGi configuration service

>> Spring has proposed formalizing much of their xml plan handling stuff as
>> the osgi blueprint service.  It's getting a bunch of independent review
>> and (IMO) clarification and improvement  and is very close to the final
>> spec draft.  There's a TCK.  A few people from servicemix and geronimo
>> are working on an apache implementation, currently hosted at geronimo.
>> So I'd recommend using the blueprint service as the "standard" component
>> wiring technique.
>>
>> I'm not a blueprint expert.... however I think that the service only
>> wires up stuff in one bundle, while allowing component references to
>> osgi services and publishing components as osgi services.  So, I think
>> that rather than having one monolithic server configuration file, you
>> can have each piece of the mail server configured in a separate bundle
>> and wire the large-scale component assemblies together using services.
>>
>> One issue I have not yet found out how to solve in osgi is how to locate
>> the server installation on the file system so you can have stuff like
>> file-based storage relative to the installation.  For instance in
>> geronimo we have a var directory in the server installation and tell
>> everyone to put their file based data somewhere inside that, rather than
>> trying to store it inside the application itself somehow (as people seem
>> to like to do with web apps)  There may be a built in or easy solution
>> to this but I don't know what it is yet.
>
> Maybe it worth forgetting at all about phoenix in trunk and try this
> way, but this require someone doing this. If there is no one interested
> in pushing a new container we can stop discussing. Or at least we can
> remove "roadmap" from the subject and simply have a bar conversation
> about container/kernels/frameworks.
>
> Reading this one (http://markmail.org/thread/mib3hlxqh7g7h5gm) I
> understand karaf is the direct evolution of ServiceMix and that it will
> support BluePrint. I liked ServiceMix in past.
>
> If Robert is willing to try karaf for IMAP then I'd love to review that
> stuff. IMO is an higher priority to see karaf in IMAP than to have any
> featureless release for james.

i'm no longer interested in pushing any container solution: i don't have time

IMHO given the documentation effort required and resources available,
moving users (as opposed to mail application developers) to a new
platform not realistic. an undocumented 3.x running on a novel
container isn't going to offer mail server users a good deal.

but the point is that karaf doesn't require invasive changes to the code base

IMHO it would make most sense to retain 2.x as a pheonix based
solution aimed at mail server users reusing libraries from a spring
based 3.x  aimed at mail application developers

>>> that's fine
>>>
>>> i'm almost certainly going to move to karaf. i no longer have time for
>>> avalon and i'm out of hope that any sort of consensus about new
>>> containers for 3.x will be every reached.
>
> You told this also some months ago. My impression was that most people
> don't care too much nowadays and that the PMC will agree on anything
> that remove phoenix. While I'm not sure I share this vision I'd bet that
> a vote (started by you) to move trunk to karaf would pass. Why don't you
> simply try it?

whenever we start to discuss any moves, it just dissolves. there just
isn't enough consensus.

everyone knows that i favour factoring out libraries which can be
reused between 2.x and 3.x but there just isn't consensus support for
this.

- robert

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