Why didn't you point him to some of the many sites that run today?
Reference sites, are usually devices deployed by companies like MS, Oracle,
Sun, etc to showcase something.
Most clients I've run into want to talk to some real-world reference site to
validate the technology, applicability, and you.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but what's wrong with using the references
listed on Sun's site for the technology?
Thor HW
----- Original Message -----
From: David Bullock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: Servlet performance
> Note: the following was posted to jserv-interest, but I thought to
> cross-post it because it is of relevance to the jserv-interest,
> servlet-interest, and servlet-forum groups, in my opinion.
>
> This was originally in reply to a request by Kapil Manchanda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> , asking for information to justify Servlets over ASP:
>
> >If anyone can provide some, link or info on the performance comparison
> >between these technologies, I would appreciate it. Our primary concerns
> >are security, stability & performance (speed).
>
> There is not much out there that I could find.
>
> Note that my 'history' was improved with feedback from Tim Panton
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> from the jserv-interest list, as regards the
availability
> of Jigsaw and VPRO.
>
> Your comments welcome. Your hard information even more so! I was
provided
> with a few references, and am compiling a list which I will make public.
>
> David.
>
> -----------
>
> If Java Servlet technology is to become a mainstream technology, as it
> technically deserves to, the Servlet developer community must really band
> together and form a 'reference site' site. It must not be a politically
> biased site either (ie. anti-MS because we dislike monopolies).
>
> I was trying to justify Java (somewhat unexpectedly) to a potential
client,
> after being invited late to the bid, and being shortlisted as one of two
> possibilities. I was unable to quickly direct him to any site that proved
> the capability of Java servlets. We lost the job on the basis of the
> contractor for the 'look & feel' of the site only being familiar with ASP,
> and his perceptions of Java as 'slow'.
>
> Here are some of the facts that contribute to this, that I discovered in
my
> research.
>
> - There are various ways of making web-pages dynamic. From a web-designer
> perspective, the best approach is where they have full control of their
> web-pages. Technologies like ASP and JSP are probably the best approach
> for designers. In any case, it is being used by one of the leading web
> design companies in Australia.
>
> - ASP has been around (in varying degrees of bugginess) since Microsoft
IIS
> 3.0, which shipped with every copy of NT Server 4.0 since early 1997.
>
> - IIS, according to the survey at http://www.netcraft.co.uk/ currently has
> 30% of the web-server market, with 60% of the market being held by Apache.
>
> - Live Software's JRun was (among the) first to have a Servlet Engine that
> interfaced to Apache in 1998! The Java Apache Project have now followed
up
> with their own implementation of servlet technology, which was released in
> 1999!
>
> - The JSP specification 1.0 has only just been released, and no vendors
yet
> (well, last week) provide an implementation past 0.92.
>
> - Most of the "Servlets vs. technology-X" papers out there are versus
> CGI. Unfortunately, many of the advantages which servlets have over CGI
> are also shared by ASP.
>
> Because of this, there is little evidence to show of widespread
high-volume
> servlet deployment at the moment. Of the 60% of sites using Apache, you
> can bet that 98% of dynamic sites are using CGI, because the Java Servlet
> technology is:
>
> a) young itself
> b) until recently, not available on a free webserver
>
> [with Jigsaw, and VPRO being exceptions, having had basic servlet support
> since the heady days of Jeeves...but I can qualify 'b' by saying 'until
> recently, not available on a MAINSTREAM webserver'.]
>
> However, I would estimate that at least 50% of the dynamic sites using IIS
> would be using ASP (could you imagine CGI on Windows? ugh.). Especially
> the larger sites! (count the number of pages matching "link:*.asp" at
> AltaVista).
>
> Also, VisualBasic is still the language most accessible to most aspiring
> young programmers (their parent's copy of Microsoft Word has it). It is
> more likely that a new employee will be able to pick up VBScript than
Java.
>
> In it's favour, it is now possible to get Linux (free OS), and Apache
(free
> webserver), and JServ (free servlet runner). But the entire technology
> will still be less accessible to most people that MS products, because MS
> still own the desktop.
>
> So we have some work to do! We know it's a great technology for
> developers: but we need to convince designers and project-sponsors that
> this technology can cut high-volume.
>
> There will of course be some good and bad stories. Naturally, a
> well-written Java site is going to perform better than a poorly-written
> Microsoft site. But the natural performance overheads in having a Java
> Virtual Machine are such that a well-written Java site is still going to
be
> not-quite-up-to a well-written Microsoft site, on the same piece of
> hardware. [note: depending on lots of things, I realise - but as a
> generalisation...]
>
> So there have to be other justifications to use Java technology. For
> example, it is a great, maintainable language. And speed, well!, for your
> 'particular' web-platform, we can compile to native and our servlets will
> work just as well [Do they? Anybody tried this with a particular
> combination of web-server/servlet-engine?] Things like this.
>
> And please remember that 'platform independence' is only an advantage _to
> the customer_ if they want to run *other applications that are available
> only on that system*, OR if they already have invested in some hardware
and
> wish to protect that investment. And in the web-space, neither of these
> are significant - most webs are new webs, and secure web-servers only have
> a web-server on them, and precious little else outside the firewall. So
> the platform independent advantages of Java are NOT a selling point to
> builders of web-sites, who, as Kapil just mentioned, are interested in:
>
> - security
> - stability
> - speed
>
> Now, I don't think Java can beat any native implementation (except perhaps
> CGI, depending on the usage model) on speed. But maybe the efficiencies
of
> a Linux OS (for example, which is free) and an additional (or at least
> faster) processor in your Intel machine might be roughly the same price as
> buying Microsoft NT Server for internet use! And I'm sure with the
> additional CPU grunt, then Java will come into it's own!
>
> But security? IIS only runs on NT. How secure is NT? How secure is IIS
> itself? Surely not more secure than the tried & true Apache! But in what
> specific areas?
>
> Stability? Did you know that if the ASP engine crashes, you have to kill
> the entire web-server process? Did you know, when you apply a patch to
> your web-server, you have to reboot the whole machine?
>
> OK guys? If anyone would like to start a site, I have lots of ideas I'd
> like to share to shape it!
>
> Regards,
> David Bullock.
>
> At 10:06 AM 8/2/99 +0530, you wrote:
> >Hi
> >
> >I have recently started using Java Servlet technology, and I am greatly
> >impressed by it. Previously our orgainzation has been using ASP and Cold
> >Fusion as the development platform. I have to convince my colleagues and
> >the management that Java is better platform. If anyone can provide some,
> >link or info on the performance comparison between these technologies, I
> >would appreciate it. Our primary concerns are security, stability &
> >performance (speed).
> >
> >Kapil
>
>
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