Um... if what you said here doesn't make it clear, nothing I can say ever will.
On 25/10/12 14:18, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: > Wow, how did "I am biased against women just like any other person in > our society" turn into "in many regards it is women's fault"? > > S. > > > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Robert Shea <[email protected]> wrote: >> I never said I was dodging the issue. >> I said all I can do is make my own smart choices, if I need an engineer, >> I couldn't care less what restroom they use. Attempts at anything beyond >> this are foolish. >> >> Nor I am not ignoring the issue. >> I am saying that people who perpetuate it on one side are dumb/insecure >> and the other side... they may not be dumb, but the "solutions" are. >> >> With engineering in particular, it is a critical importance that your >> team can actually function as a team. Here a gender bias may become very >> real. I've been fortunate enough to not have this be a problem, but if I >> felt my team couldn't work well with a woman, I wouldn't hire one. To >> demand anything else is to claim that preferential treatment of a gender >> trumps not only the work environment as a whole, but the quality of the >> product as well. >> >> As a father of a baby girl, this has gone from disappointing to >> frustrating, but in many regards it is women's fault. As you just said, >> you're biased against women. It has been my experience that the >> overwhelming majority of women are biased against women despite the >> quality of work across genders being largely comparable. >> >> Anyhow, I firmly believe gender equality can only arise through first >> order change, second order efforts only create new bias. This is not >> "dodging the issue." >> >> >> >> On 25/10/12 11:33, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: >>> Actually, ignoring the problem doesn't help. We are by sheer nature of >>> our society biased towards specific groups. That goes far beyond >>> gender and skin color. It happens subconsciously and we are all >>> affected. How surprised was I to find out that I as a woman was >>> actually also biased against women! >>> >>> Consciously accepting the fact that we are biased is a first step. >>> Unfortunately if often leads to the counter-reaction that we are >>> either actively trying to go against our gut feeling and giving a >>> somewhat unfair advantage to groups that we are supposed to be biased >>> against. Or worse: we try and rationalize our gut feeling. >>> >>> For myself, I've come up with a system that helps me accept that I am >>> biased and overcome that biases to a certain extent. For example, when >>> I have to make a hiring decision and it is between a woman and a man, >>> I would try to remove the bias by asking myself what I would do if the >>> genders were reversed. What would I have said about a man giving the >>> performance that the woman did? More often than not I am surprised >>> about the consequence of this simple exercise. >>> >>> Anyway - sorry about the rant, which was a bit off topic, but got >>> triggered by you saying you're "dodging the issue". ;-) >>> >>> Back to coding ... >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Silvia. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Robert Shea <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> "Reverse sexism" is still sexism, only more condescending. >>>> >>>> It'd be nice if people weren't so damned stupid and insecure, but until >>>> that >>>> day comes, we'll continue to have dumb problems with dumb attempts at >>>> solutions. Personally, I just dodge the whole issue and just control what I >>>> can control in a manner that makes sense (gender (or skin colour) are >>>> rarely >>>> connected to my requirements). Anything more than this feels exploitative >>>> to >>>> me, not saying it is, it just feels that way to me. >>>> >>>> The article itself is counter-productive, intended to create emotional >>>> responses in specific groups with no apparent consideration for the >>>> propagation of practical information. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 24/10/12 19:51, simran wrote: >>>> >>>> i wonder if we're all getting away in this hype cycle of reverse sexism... >>>> there is lies, damned lies and statistics... >>>> >>>> wondering what that article is even trying to achieve (other than audience >>>> through sensationalism)... there's the right person for the job, and >>>> there's >>>> the wrong person for the job... and i suspect, their sex has little to do >>>> with it - i've been known to be wrong before, but the cyclic focus on sex >>>> as >>>> an attribute related to "success" is nauseating... >>>> (yes, there is dark humour in there, go on have a laugh :) people who laugh >>>> succeed more often :) haha :) >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 6:51 AM, André Levy <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Women start ventures with 8% less funding than men. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.womenonbusiness.com/investing-in-women-infographic/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=investing-in-women-infographic >>>>> >>>>> How many of us here are women? (other than Kim Chen, obviously) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach >>>>> Australia mailing list. Vist http://siliconbeachaustralia.org for more >>>>> >>>>> Forum rules >>>>> 1) No lurkers! It is expected that you introduce yourself. >>>>> 2) No jobs postings. You can use http://siliconbeachaustralia.org/jobs >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia?hl=en?hl=en >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach >>>> Australia mailing list. Vist http://siliconbeachaustralia.org for more >>>> >>>> Forum rules >>>> 1) No lurkers! It is expected that you introduce yourself. >>>> 2) No jobs postings. You can use http://siliconbeachaustralia.org/jobs >>>> >>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> [email protected] >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected] >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/silicon-beach-australia?hl=en?hl=en >>>> >>>> >>
signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
