Cool topic. I've proposed discussions on Intellect vs. Spirit at OSCON, but O'Reilly has never touched them.

Danese

On Apr 4, 2007, at 11:25 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:

----- Forwarded message from "Hughes, James J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -----

From: "Hughes, James J." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:51:02 -0400
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],
World Transhumanist Association Discussion List <wta- [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [wta-talk] Nerds,
        religious fundamentalism & atypical personality in India
Reply-To: World Transhumanist Association Discussion List <wta- [EMAIL PROTECTED]>


   [1]http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/nerds-are-nuts.php



   Nerds are nuts

Reading [2]In Spite of the Gods: The Strange Rise of Modern India, I
   stumbled upon this passage on page 151:

     ...Whereas the Congress Party was dominated by lawyers and
     journalists, the RSS was dominated by people from a scientific
     background. Both groups were almost exclusively Brahmin in their
formative years...three out of four of Hedegwar's [the founder, who
     was a doctor -Razib] successors were also from scientific
backgrounds: M.S. Golwalker...was a zoologist...Rajendra Singh was
     a physicist; and K.S. Sudarshan...is an engineer....

   Some quick "background." The [3]RSS is a prominent member of the
   [4]Hindutva movement, roughly, Hindu nationalism. Some people have
   termed them "Hindu fundamentalists," suggesting an equivalence with
   reactionary religious movements the world over. There is a problem
   with such a broad brush term: some proponents and adherents of
Hindutva are not themselves particularly religious and make no effort
   to pretend that they are. Rather, they are individuals who are
   attracted to the movement for racial-nationalist reasons, they view
"Hindus" as a people as much, or more than, a religion. One could make
   an argument that the "Christian Right" or "Islamism" are not at the
   root concerned or driven by religious motives, but, members of both
   these movements would assert at least a pretense toward religiosity
   almost universally.
   With that preamble out of the way, I was not surprised that the RSS
had a core cadre of scientifically oriented leaders. This is a common tendency amongst faux reactionary movements with a religious element. I say faux because these movements tend to be extremely innovative and progressive in the process of attempting to recreate a mythic golden
   past. The militancy of some of the organizations in the Hindutva
   movement, like the VHP and RSS, has been asserted by some Hindu
intellectuals as being...un-Hindu. Some of the early intellectuals in the movement admitted that they were attempting to fight back against
   Islam and Christianity by co-opting some of the modalities of these
   two religions. The question becomes at what point does pragmatic
methodology suborn the ultimate ends? I won't offer an answer because I have little interest in that topic, at least in this post. Rather, I want to move back to the point about scientists and their involvement
   in "fundamentalist" religious movements. Scientifically trained
   individuals are over represented within Islam in the [5]Salafist
Terror Network. As a child the fundamentalist engineer was a cut- out
   stereotype amongst the circle of graduate students in the natural
sciences from Muslim backgrounds that my parents socialized amongst.
   Ethnological research confirms that Islamist movements are highly
   concentrated within departments of engineering at universities.
Engineers are also very prominent in the Creationist movement in the United States. If civilizations can be analogized to organisms, then a
   particular subset of technically minded folk get very strange when
interfacing with the world around us...and turn into fundamentalists. So why the tendency for technical people to be so prominent in these
   groups? First, let me clarify that just because technical folk are
heavily over represented amongst religious radicals does not mean that religious radicals are necessarily a large demographic among technical
   folk. Rather, amongst the set of religious radicals the technicians
seem to rise up to positions of power and provide excellent recruits.
   There is I think a socioeconomic angle on this. Years back I was
curious as to the class origin of different scientific professions. I didn't find much, but the data I did gather implied that engineers are generally more likely to be from less affluent backgrounds than more
   abstract and less practical fields like botany or astronomy. This
makes sense, engineering is one of the best tickets to a middle class
   livelihood, and it might necessitate fewer social graces (acquired
   through "breeding") than medicine or law. As it happens, oftentimes
   fundamentalist movements draw much of their strength from upwardly
   mobile groups who are striving to ascend up from lower to
   lower-middle-class status. Though the Hindutva movement in India is
   mostly upper caste, it is not concentrated amongst the English
   speaking super elite who are quite Westernized, but rather its
   strength lay amongst the non-Western sub-elites (e.g., merchants in
small to mid-sized cities) or the petite bourgeois. Islamism in much
   of the world can be traced to the anomie generated by the
   transformation of "traditional" societies through urbanization and
   other assorted dislocations, and as peasants enter the modern world
   Islamic orthodoxy is a way to moor themselves within the new urban
   matrix and the world of wage labor. Similarly, the rise of the
   Christian Right can be tied in part to the entrance of evangelicals
into the broad middle class as the Old South became the New South and
   air conditioning led to the blossoming of the Sun Belt.
But there are likely other factors at play which are not sociological or cultural, but individual. Fundamentalists tend to be "literalists," and have a tendency to look at their religious texts as divine manuals which describe and prescribe every aspect of the world. In some ways
   this is a new tendency in our species, at least as a mass movement.
One can definitely trace scriptural fundamentalism to the Protestant
   Reformation with the call to sola scriptura, but in the West its
   contemporary origin can be found in the reaction in the late 19th
   century and early 20th century to textual analysis of the Bible by
modernists. The assault on the historicity of the Bible, combined with both mass literacy and a democratic culture in the United States, led inevitably to a crass literalism that birthed the peculiarities which we see before us in the form of Creationism and its sisters. A literal
   reading of the Bible leads to ludicrous conclusions, but if one
   perceives that the game is all or nothing, then perhaps one must
assert the truth value of Genesis as if it was a scientific treatise.
   Religious professionals have often been skeptical of literalism
   because a deep knowledge of languages and the translation process
highlights various ambiguities and gray shades, but for those whom the text is plain and unadorned by deeper knowledge its meaning is "clear" and must be take at its word. Scientists and engineers live in a world
   of axioms, laws and theories, which though rough and ready, must be
   taken as truths for predictions and models to be valid. You make
assumptions, you construct a model, and you project a range of values
   bounded by errors. Once science is established you take it is as a
given and don't engage in excessive philosophical reflection. This is "[6]normal science." The axioms are validated by their utility in an
   instrumental fashion in engineering and model building. Obviously
religious truths are different. Plainly, the direct material benefits of religion, magic, is easily falsifiable. The indirect benefits, the afterlife, etc., are often beyond verification. A critical examination
   of the Hebrew Bible shows all sorts of fallacious assumptions. For
example, there is an implication that the world is flat and that the
   sun revolves around the earth. Though these contentions are not
   defensible, there are a host of other assertions which are less
   plainly incorrect, or at least seem to be refuted only by a more
   complex suite of contingent facts (e.g., the historical sciences in
   the form of geology and evolutionary biology falsify the creation
account, but these are complex stories which require acceptance of a
   chain of inferences). Obviously many religious people have a deep
   emotional attachment to their faith. If one is told that one's
   religion is based on a book, and that book plainly seems to imply
   ludicrous assertions, how to square this circle? Many a scientific
   mind simply accepts the ludicrous axioms and starts to generate
   inferences. Consider the[7] Water Canopy Theory. Or, the Hindutva
   ideology that Aryans originated in India, spread to the rest of the
world, and so brought civilization (the gift of the Indians). Or that
   Hindu mythology records the ancient use of nuclear weapons and
   spaceships. There are even books like [8]Human Devolution: a Vedic
alternative to Darwin's theory. Strictly speaking much of this work is not irrational, insofar as it exhibits internal logical coherency. The
   axioms are simply ludicrous.
Which gets me back to the way scientists think: though some scientists
   are very philosophical, the way in which science is taught is often
not particularly focused on the nature and reasoning beyond the axioms given. PV = nRT. Why? There are quick primers in regards to the root of the Ideal Gas Law, but the key is to take this law and utilize it
   to solve problems. But what if PV = nRT is subjective, a
   misinterpretation. Perhaps a cultural mix-up resulted in a
transcription error which introduced the gas constant, R. This is an idiotic question to ask in science. If you're taking a course on the kinetics of gases you don't have long discussions lingering upon the nature of motion and gas particles, those are assumed. In contrast in
   softer disciplines the very concept of "motion" an "particles" are
   subject to critique because the objects of study are far more
slippery. Is it the "Red Sea" or "Sea of Reeds"? Does the Bible refer
   to Mary as a virgin or an unmarried woman? Does the color coding of
   the Aryans and Dasas in the Vedas refer to literal differences in
complexion, or are they narrative conventions? Language lacks of the interpersonal precision of mathematics, and while [9] uniformitarianism has served us admirably in the natural sciences, the dynamic nature of
   idiom, phrase and speech within shifting context means that teasing
   apart meaning from the records of the past can be a difficult feat
   which requires care, erudition and common sense.
Up until this point I have focused on the way scientists work, and the
   necessity of background assumptions, and the relative short shrift
they often give to the "meta" analysis of background concepts. Though
   I don't want to push this line of thought too far, I will offer the
   following illustrations of behaviors which I think are not totally
unlike the manner in which some fundamentalists behave. Someone tells
   a child to "pull the door behind" them. He proceeds to unscrew the
   hinges and drag the front door across to the street to his house.
Siblings are told that there is life after death by their parent. They
   proceed to plan the death of one so that some confirmation of this
possibility can be ascertained. These two instances are real examples
   of individuals who exhibit Autism/Asperger's Syndrome. Anyone who
would behave in this way lacks common social sense. I believe that a disproportionate number of those who are attracted to fundamentalism
   tend to lack the same perspective and contextualizing capacity in
regards to their religious beliefs. If they can do some matrix algebra too, they're nerds. On a mass scale, consider that both Salafis among Muslims and Puritans among Calvinists debated whether all that was not
   mentioned within their Holy Texts as permissible were therefore
   impermissible. I suspect that for most people common sense might
persuade one to the conclusion that these sort of debates imply a lack
   of a sense of proportion, frankly, of normalcy.
   In sum:
     * Hard core religious fundamentalists are somewhat atypical
       psychologically
     * Scientists and engineers are also atypical psychologically
     * Some of the traits modal within these two sets intersect
     * Resulting in a disproportionate number of scientists amongst
       fundamentalists
* Science converges upon rock solid truths, which become the axioms for the next set of projections and investigations. Fundamentalism presents itself as axioms and clear and distinct inferences from those axioms. Both are fundamentally elegant and simple cognitive
       processes, but, the content is so radically different that the
       outcomes in regards to truth value are very different
* Mass literacy and mass society, as well as the decentralization of authority and power, likely made fundamentalism inevitable as the basal level of individuals with susceptible psychological profiles
       could now have direct access to the axioms in question (texts)
     * Just as some scientists tend to take ideas to their "logical
       extremes" (e.g., the "paradoxes" of physics) no matter the
dictates of common sense, so some fundamentalists take the logical
       conclusion of their religious texts to extremes
* No matter the religion it seems that modernity will produce faux reactionary fundamentalism because of the nature of normal human
       variation combined with universal inputs (e.g., the rise of
       normative consumerism, urbanization, etc.).

References

   1. http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/nerds-are-nuts.php
2. http://www.amazon.com/Spite-Gods-Strange-Modern-India/dp/ 0385514743/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-9954258-8060061? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175666384&sr=8-1
   3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh
   4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva
   5. http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2005/07/profile-of-salafi-jihadists.php
   6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_science
   7. http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/canopy.html
8. http://www.amazon.com/Human-Devolution-alternative-Darwins- theory/dp/0892133341/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-9954258-8060061? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175674970&sr=1-1
   9. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformitarianism_%28science%29

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