Send silklist mailing list submissions to
[email protected]
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/silklist
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
[email protected]
You can reach the person managing the list at
[email protected]
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of silklist digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Introducing myself. Raja Venkataraman ([email protected])
2. Re: What is "Indian culture"? (Kiran K Karthikeyan)
3. Re: What is "Indian culture"? (Bharat Shetty)
4. Re: What is "Indian culture"? (Raja)
5. Re: What is "Indian culture"? (ss)
6. Re: What is "Indian culture"? (ss)
7. Re: What is "Indian culture"? (Radhika, Y.)
8. Re: What is "Indian culture"? (Sruthi Krishnan)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 06:36:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [silk] Introducing myself. Raja Venkataraman
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Message-ID:
<15652107.13218.1236605816945.javamail.se...@ap0.trial.red.7sys.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Yup sure
--
srs / nokia e71
-original message-
Subject: Re: [silk] Introducing myself. Raja Venkataraman
From: "Chandrachoodan Gopalakrishnan" <[email protected]>
Date: 09-03-2009 18:09
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Venkat Mangudi
<[email protected]>wrote:
Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
that reminds me. you asked for a meetup right?
Yes, if anyone is interested. Thu evening, perhaps?
I am. Thursday works for me as well. Okay to bring a few other
folks along?
C
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:16:25 +0530
From: Kiran K Karthikeyan <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [silk] What is "Indian culture"?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Udhay,
Firstly, I was trying to draw a distinction between Indian culture(s)
and the "Indian culture" that is oh-so-conveniently trotted out as an
excuse for the various lumpen elements in the public sphere.
Secondly, I don;t understand why _seeking to understand_ either
Indian
culture or "Indian culture" is in itself a capitulation or a
victory for
the Mutaliks.
What I was trying to say was maybe more in context with the article
which was asking for a defense to what the Ram Sena sees as the
degradation of Indian culture. Excerpt below:
What I need is a well-thought-out, clearly articulated dictum of
what
constitutes Indian culture; a list if you will; ammunition. So that
when
orators at a Hindutva meeting talk about Indian culture being screwed
up, I can tell him that they are wrong. I can tell Selvam, ?Indian
culture is not just about wearing jasmine in the hair. It is X, Y,
and Z.?<<
I don't think any clearly articulated dictum/ammunition is necessary.
X, Y, and Z differs for each person. And what Mutalik is doing is
imposing his X, Y, and Z if you will, on others. If the urbane try to
define their own X, Y, and Z in what way are we different from
Mutalik, although we are doing so in defense to Mutalik's offensive?
If another crackpot starts with how Hindus should live, will we try to
define what it means for us to be Hindu in defense? Be Bangalorean?
All I'm trying to say is that while all these identities are
collective, their essence is in each individual, not the collective.
So what Mutalik is angry about is that he knows very well that his
interpretation of Indian culture is dying or dead (if he is honest
about his purpose which I doubt). American Beauty had this wonderful
line "Never underestimate the power of denial".
I'm thankful for the fact that the Ministy of Culture didn't have an
answer to the question of what defines Indian culture. I'd be quite
worried if they did.
Kiran
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:15:40 -0400
From: Bharat Shetty <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [silk] What is "Indian culture"?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Kiran, +1
By the way, has the magnitude of urban protests (articles, voicing of
opinions on blogs or media, pink chaddi sarcasm/creativity whatever it
might be, candle light marches etc) been lesser than protests at rural
areas ?
Suppose, if it is really greater than the magnitude of protests at
rural areas, I wonder why is that ?
Are the people at rural areas bogged down by problems, which they
perceive as greater and more pertinent to them than the pub attacks,
attacks on women at urban centres ? OR
Are they not given due attention by the media which delightfully is
pleased to fill in the stories of urban protests into their columns
and articles for they could not get something else useful to fill in
their news sections ? OR
Are they envious of the comfortable life led by these middle class
families and youth in urban areas ? OR
Are they made not to reveal too much by the local political mafias or
landlords ? OR
Are they missing some platform where they can come out openly like
middle class urban youth and people ?
The list can go on ..
A pluralistic country like India throws up too many questions - some
of them disturbing, and need to be analysed by getting down into the
roots, if we can do that.
-- Bharat
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
<[email protected]> wrote:
Udhay,
Firstly, I was trying to draw a distinction between Indian culture
(s)
and the "Indian culture" that is oh-so-conveniently trotted out
as an
excuse for the various lumpen elements in the public sphere.
Secondly, I don;t understand why _seeking to understand_ either
Indian
culture or "Indian culture" is in itself a capitulation or a
victory for
the Mutaliks.
What I was trying to say was maybe more in context with the article
which was asking for a defense to what the Ram Sena sees as the
degradation of Indian culture. Excerpt below:
What I need is a well-thought-out, clearly articulated dictum of
what
constitutes Indian culture; a list if you will; ammunition. So
that when
orators at a Hindutva meeting talk about Indian culture being screwed
up, I can tell him that they are wrong. I can tell Selvam, ?Indian
culture is not just about wearing jasmine in the hair. It is X, Y,
and Z.?<<
I don't think any clearly articulated dictum/ammunition is necessary.
X, Y, and Z differs for each person. And what Mutalik is doing is
imposing his X, Y, and Z if you will, on others. If the urbane try to
define their own X, Y, and Z in what way are we different from
Mutalik, although we are doing so in defense to Mutalik's offensive?
If another crackpot starts with how Hindus should live, will we
try to
define what it means for us to be Hindu in defense? Be Bangalorean?
All I'm trying to say is that while all these identities are
collective, their essence is in each individual, not the collective.
So what Mutalik is angry about is that he knows very well that his
interpretation of Indian culture is dying or dead (if he is honest
about his purpose which I doubt). American Beauty had this wonderful
line "Never underestimate the power of denial".
I'm thankful for the fact that the Ministy of Culture didn't have an
answer to the question of what defines Indian culture. I'd be quite
worried if they did.
Kiran
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:52:45 +0530
From: Raja <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [silk] What is "Indian culture"?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
That seems like an extensive discussion. Actually it seemed more
like an
ugly fighting contest in the undergrounds of Thailand. Was there some
specific point that you were pointing me to?
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Udhay Shankar N <[email protected]>
wrote:
Raja wrote, [on 3/9/2009 4:10 PM]:
No one points out that India as a country
didn't exist till 1947.
This might be useful to start some reading:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silk-list/message/10054
Udhay
--
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:15:14 +0530
From: ss <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [silk] What is "Indian culture"?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
On Monday 09 Mar 2009 6:23:13 pm Ramakrishnan Sundaram wrote:
I wish I had traveled more in India when I was single.
Heh heh heh
i know the feeling - and we don't want the wives to know do we? :D
shiv
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:20:57 +0530
From: ss <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [silk] What is "Indian culture"?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
You cannot define "Indian culture" without defining the Hindu. However
defining the Hindu is not that easy.
The term "Hindu" is a result of linguistic fractal recursivity in
which some
people came to India and said "Hey you are all hindus" to a people
who had no
clue that they needed to (or could possibly) define themselves as
one group.
The latter group then took up this name with gusto and started
saying "Hey-OK - we are Hindu"
Fractal recursivity seems to be a very important phenomenon in
which Hindus
have anointed themselevs with a narrow set of definitions and
charactersitics
that were originally third party observations of "Hindu" behavior -
(sometimes of niche behavior) by someone or the other.
The Hindu of Bangalore will balk at the idea of the Hindu of
Mizoram eating
beef - the former having convinced himself that a fixed set of
definitions
constitutes "Hindu". When my classmate Vani Guha (sister of Ram
Guha) joined
college a senior of mine from Tamil Nadu (now settled in the US)
asked "Is
Vani Guha Hindu". The answer, from an Andhra-ite was, "No. I think
she is
Bengali" (which she is not)
Whatever Hindutvadis claim was "original Hindu behavior' they find
it dificult
to admit that Islam had a great influence on Hindu behavior. It is
also true
that "Hindu" behavior affected Islam. This hybrid culture later
absorbed
western traits from Macaulayization.
Indian culture is a hybrid of many cultures that have come down
through the
ages - but only Suketu Mehta describes it well. India has the
ability to
swallow something and puke it out in a manner that reembles nothing
else on
earth.
Then came partition - which has had a deep effect on Indian psyche. at
partiction the Pakistan idea gelled into "That which is islamic,
with nothing
Hindu in it". As a tit for tat reaction Hindus in India clubbed all
Muslims
as "Those who are Islamic with nothing Hindu in them"
This has set the stage for modern Hindutvadis who are trying to
remove "Islamic influences" and all British "Western" influences
from indian
society. Thse people are actually doing bullsh1t because they do not
understand how deep both Islamic and Western influences run in Indian
behavior. Removing those influences is not possible - for reasons
that I
intend to write about in due course.
I have a standard method of getting Hindutvadis really mad -
usually by saying
that I have decided to convert and that all the behavior that they
don't like
is part of my new culture. While I sympathise with what I describe as
a "loss of Hindu narrative" - I have little patience for GIGO.
Make your vote count. Now more so than ever.
shiv
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:11:57 -0700
From: "Radhika, Y." <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [silk] What is "Indian culture"?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I am a wife who has traveled more than her husband both in india
and outside
although what all that moving has to do with any learning is a moot
point!
the question of what is indian culture i interpret as asking what
do we as a
society cultivate? What do we as a society hope for in our young
and what do
we teach them? I am not sure that any nation-state today has explicit
lessons in culture although many messages are passed on subtly
about what
constitutes americanness or frenchness or indianness. The cultural
message
that came through to me most clearly when I was a child is that
being HIndu
(confused in my case with the idea of being Indian) means to endure.
Enduring hardship, insult, injury, wrongdoing, but steadily
plodding on
impervious to all and somehow maintaining the illusion that we are not
participants in that which we observe only in that which we do and
sometimes
not even that as we were thwarted by circumstances. Endurance
became Janus
faced sometimes taking on the guise of tolerance, a Gandian turning
of the
cheek, and other times just an excuse for being unaccountable/
irresponsible
when your neighbors were being burned, raped and killed.
Some of you may be interested in the South Asian Idea weblog,
started by Dr.
Anjum Altaf of Pakistan at
http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/2007/12/09/hello-world/. He
is also
at this time looking for schools/ school systems in India and other
South
asian countries that would like to engage their students and
teachers in
such discussions of culture, religion, democracy and governance. The
explicit aim is to encourage critical thinking and fill a gap in the
education systems that de-emphasize liberal arts and humanities
where such
skills are tradition.
Radhika
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 7:45 AM, ss <[email protected]> wrote:
On Monday 09 Mar 2009 6:23:13 pm Ramakrishnan Sundaram wrote:
I wish I had traveled more in India when I was single.
Heh heh heh
i know the feeling - and we don't want the wives to know do we? :D
shiv
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:46:05 +0530
From: Sruthi Krishnan <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [silk] What is "Indian culture"?
To: [email protected]
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
My two paise on the question:
Why can't the response be that of tolerance rather than a definition?
Udhay, a discussion on what constitutes Indian culture would not be
capitulation, but providing that as a response would be. This is
because by framing a definition, you are also defining an other. As
soon as
the other is defined, then it becomes an either or question unless the
definition is loose enough to accommodate the other too.
The Sene can have their ideas of what constitutes culture. The
question is
not whether their idea of culture is right or wrong, but whether
everyone
needs to conform to that idea.
The pink chaddi response made a lot of people uncomfortable because
it chose
to define the other in closed terms. Hence, you had to be a part of
the pink
chaddi campaign to be the other of Sene. The boundaries cannot be
black and
white because we live in the shades of gray.
That's probably why Shobha's response of trying to get at X,Y and Z
defining
Indian culture would fall into the same trap.
Even if it is "proved" tomorrow, by some newly discovered science,
that the
Sene definition is what Indian Culture is, the ideal of tolerance
cannot be
held ransom to such definitions.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
silklist mailing list
[email protected]
http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/silklist
End of silklist Digest, Vol 56, Issue 24
****************************************
