Dear Nancy, I find that the whole Colloidal Silver "thing" is quite complex and sometimes plain strange. I feel that the little delving I did (and still do) into the matter leaves more questions than answers. For the benefit of the wonderful contributors to the silver list, I'll respond to your e-mail on-list. First, I'll just answer your questions. Then I'll paste in some previous posts in this message and finally I'll relate some insights etc. that are of more recent origin. There is unfortunately no short answer I have about the whole colloidal silver "enigma"!
-----Original Message----- From: Nancy B. <silverwo...@bigfoot.com> To: Silver-List <silver-list@eskimo.com> Date: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 5:39 AM Subject: For Christian von Wechmar >Please tell me more about your experience testing both low >voltage CS & HVAC CS. I missed that discussion some time >ago. To test cs, I use a ZetaSizer, ICP and electron microscope. I have also used a Streaming Current Detector. All this equipment is at the local university and at two other private research facilities close by. The ZetaSizer is a measuring instrument that uses a laser beam to compute particle size. The particle size of cs is at the bottom range of this instrument's capability, but when it is calibrated with a standard that closely matches the cs particle size, I believe it is probably the best way to determine particle size. Possibly even "nicer" than an electron microscope. By using the ZetaSizer, I have tested both HVAC cs and 30v cs. The HVAC cs I made has an average particle size of 0.114 micron with some particles even bigger than 0.5 micron. This is of course way to large for consumption according to the "accepted" norm. The smallest size I got for 30v CS was 0.026 micron. This is much, much smaller, but is it small enough? I have found that the electron microscopes that I have used ( When I say "I use" I mean that I quietly and respectfully observe what a highly trained scientist does!), both scanning and transmission varieties, give a picture that can be hard to interpret. I have not yet traveled to a neighboring city and university with a possibly better e.microscope and skilled operator and interpreter. It seems from my experience that the whole process of making the test slide to go into the e.microscope changes the cs so dramatically that it is no longer like it is in the bottle. It has to be put on metal in the case of a scanning e.microscope or on a carbon mesh in the case of a transmission e.microscope. This process seems to make the cs clump together in "strange" ways. We want to know it's size when it is in the bottle in our medicine cabinet, not? The ZetaSizer does exactly that. It tests the size in the fluid state. It goes into a small glass tube and the instrument measures many particles many times over and plots a nice graph. I'm a bit long winded about this, because I feel that it has some value for fellow researchers. I must also confess that I'm not a trained scientist. I only consult with them :-) One other thing that I would like to mention here is the zeta potential of colloidal particles. I have spoken at length with a professor in chemistry about colloidal systems and specifically cs. He feels that the real effectiveness of cs might lie in its zeta potential. It means the size of the electrical charge of the individual colloidal particle. It is well known that the higher the zeta potential of particles in a colloidal system, the more stable it will be over time. Now the HVAC dudes say their machines produce cs that is more stable than the 30v cs. This will of course mean that they make cs with a higher zeta potential of the individual particle. Again, the best way to check for zeta potential is the ZetaSizer. Unfortunately, the ZetaSizer I use does not have that function installed. But I used a Streaming Current Detector that gives a pretty good indication of zeta potential. And here is the X-file conclusion: The HVAC cs has almost no zeta potential - practically neutral, and the 30v cs has a weakish but stronger negative zeta potential. This is bizarre because the silver particles are supposed to have a positive zeta potential. I still can't believe this result but I have seen it with my own eyes. I secretly hope that the operator made a fundamental mistake... So in conclusion about my experiences with testing both HVAC cs and 30v cs, I have to say that I am doubtful of HVAC cs. But I'm the first to admit that much more testing needs to be done to come to any worthwhile conclusion. >What kind of generator did you use for HVAC? I built an almost exact copy of the Bruce Marx setup (cspro). The difference being that my transformer uses 220 volt ac 50Hz in stead of his 110 volt ac 60Hz. My output is 12000 volt and his is 10000volt. A very helpful subscriber to the list who has a CSPro machine was kind enough to provide me with detailed plans. I have to say that the CSPro electrode design and setup is inspired! >Was it clear (microscopically) that the particles from HVAC >were larger than low voltage, or could they have been clumps >of small particles which I've read about at the ProCS site >or the motherlode site? (Can't remember which one.) >There's a photo of this at one or both of these sites used >as the "wallpaper". Your guess is as good as mine. When I looked at both varieties under my own (actually my dad's) very expensive optical microscope, it "seemed" that the HVAC cs has much bigger particles than 30v cs. But don't quote me on this. Also when I have made HVAC cs and inspect is with my mini Maglite in a dark room, I can visibly see the individual HVAC particles. With 30v cs I can only see the cloudiness, no individual particles. >Also, was the HVAC CS ionic or non-ionic or both? Good question. I think only non-ionic. >Can anyone comment on whether ionic or non-ionic is better? >I can never keep that straight. Now this is a very interesting topic. I supply a MD with 30v cs that he experiments with. He kindly lent me an audio cassette that is given out by Trace Minerals Research http://www.traceminerals.com/ On the tape a scientist (a certain Dr. Kidd if I remember correctly) says that colloidal minerals of any nature may be toxic. The size is such that it can accumulate in the kidneys. The safest minerals are ionic according to him. The discussion is really interesting. He mentions cs and expressed his concern about taking it on an ongoing basis. He feels that the best way to take minerals is ionic. I think so too. This is the way the body takes up minerals. Now the question is if ionic cs kills bugs? Also I don't think that Motherlode makes pure ionic cs. I have not explored the ionic cs thing at all yet. Here are some of my previous posts: ---start paste--- At 01:12 PM 4/30/98 -0400, you wrote: >Could you give a good enough description of your unit for someone else >to try and duplicate it? I have a 9000 VAC 60 Hz 30 mA transformer >sitting here just looking for a purpose in life :-) I'll try... My unit consists of three parts: the power supply, the "brewing" vessel with electrodes and the water in it. I'll describe all three. (I'll paste in some of my previous posts :) I use a 12000 volt ac transformer with the following specs: Primary: 240 v - 1.65 amp Secondary: 12000 v - 30 milliamp 50 Hz, 360 VA This unit is used by neon display companies to power the tubes in the neon signs. Here in SA the transformers can be found in 5000, 6000, 9000, 10000 and 12000 volt, all 30 milliamp. This is according to a guy at a neon sign manufacturer. The transformer measures 225 mm long, 95 mm wide and 130 mm high. It weighs just under 10 kg and is made in Hong Kong - "ah so!" :> I connect a multimeter in series with the live wire and leave it so as to monitor input current for the whole duration of a typical 4 hour run. I first measured the current with the transformer under no load, no wires connected at the secondary terminals and it drew a constant 0.16 amp. I use a one liter glass beaker. I will upgrade this to 2 liter shortly. I have a piece of "plastic" - gray stuff in-between nylon and hard plastic - that I machined on a lathe to fit securely on the top of the beaker. You don't want anything to move around at 12000 volt! It is about 7 mm thick and 11 mm in diameter. It has two ventilation slots on top. The electrode configuration is almost exactly the same as the Bruce Marx setup. Warren was kind enough to measure his setup on the HVAC Ultra. I'll just paste in his very detailed description. (Thanks again Warren.) -----start paste----- The way my CSPro Ultra is set up, there is a bar of silver which is about 1.5 millimeters thick and about 10 by 2 1/2 centimeters. It is suspended by two copper wires hanging down from a female banana plug in the plastic top of the plastic container where the CS is produced. The silver bar hangs horizontally from the two copper wires in the form of an inverted "v" terminating in bent ends like the letter "j" passing through two holes drilled in the upper edge of the silver bar. The bar hangs in the water up to a millimeter or so from the copper wires. In other words, the vast majority of the silver bar is hanging in the distilled water almost to the level of the two holes which are drilled near the top of the bar. On the plastic top to each side of the banana plug terminal for the bar at about 3 and 1/2 centimeters is found another female banana plug terminal. A copper wire connects these two terminals. One of the female banana plugs is filled with plastic so nothing plugs into it. Suspended from each is copper wire that is formed into a one centimeter coil (to allow adjustment) and then terminates in another "j" . A short (about 2 1/2 centimeter) twisted piece of silver wire with an "eye" hangs on each copper "j" wire and is set at about 1 or 2 millimeters from the surface of the distilled water (These hang on each side of the hanging bar). When the unit is set up with the cables from the machine plugged into the top of the water container and all clearances are correct (silver bar in the distilled water all but a couple of millimeters, twisted silver wires a couple of millimeters from the top of the water) then I am ready to turn on the power. At that time, if I have good water, the water jumps up and forms a cone around each twisted wire. With really good water the cones are a centimeter and a half wide and a centimeter and a half tall, surrounding the lower part of the hanging wire. With bad water there is only one cone with the other wire arcing or both wires just arc. Of the three different kinds of distilled water I can get in my area, only one is good. It is called TV (True Value) brand and on the label it says sodium content less than .01 mg per 8 oz serving. It is distributed by Fleming Companies, Inc, Oklahoma City, OK USA (Which I include for those who may read this in the US.) Holes are cut in the top of the plastic pail for ventilation. -----end paste----- I then mailed Warren again for more info. Here are my questions and his reply: What is the diameter of your twisted silver electrodes? I noticed that my small electrodes created a nice water pyramid, but after about half an hour the tips were barely in contact with the water. Does the same happen in your system? I lowered mine to make light contact anyway. Does your manual say anything about this? -----start paste----- Responding to your questions: 1. twisted electrodes are about 1 to 2 millimeters in diameter, I'd say 1.5 millimeters and about 3 centimeters long when new. After several batches they shorten in length and eventually have to be replaced. 2. When I use good water, that is the TV water, the cones stay around the wires during the entire two hours. If I use water that isn't so good, one or both cones drop away after an hour or more and then the side that drops away arcs while the other side doesn't. The cones do drop as the process continues, but as I said, with good water, they never completely leave the wires during the whole two hours. The information indicates that the wires should be within about an eighth of an inch to 3/16ths on an inch above the water. I think that is about 2 to 5 or 6 millimeters above the water. I have found that 2 or 3 millimeters seems to work for me. 3. Diameter of vessel 17.5 centimeters, height 22.5 centimeters. 4. I don't see the Tyndall effect much at all until after 30 minutes to an hour and then toward the top of the vessel only. I stir the water as you do when the batch is over. I do 1/2 gallon (US) batches at a time. After every shift I clean off the silver metal bar with a green brillo pad and I rinse out the vessel and dry it with a clean cloth or paper towel. -----end paste----- I use automotive spark plug wire to connect the electrodes to the transformer. The leads are taped secure to my kitchen table. I use distilled and deionized water. Its conductance is 10 Megaohm per cm. It makes nice "pyramids" and keeps contact for the duration of the process. I now set up the electrodes to about 2 mm above the water level. At start-up, the current is typically 1.37 amp. After 4 hours the current is ~1.46 amp. Well within spec. The transformer is running quite warm, but not hot. The water warms up to ~40 degrees C. at which it remains for the rest of the period. The Tyndall-effect is visible after about half an hour in a dimly lit room. I switch off and stir the water every hour. I do this because the T-effect is mainly visible at the level of the big electrode. There is not much convection at the low water temperature. I am thinking about using a fish tank pump to agitate the water with water bubbles. Problem is that air in the home is quite dusty and will contaminate the water. Have to utilize some form of air cleaner. :) All three electrodes stay clean throughout the process. The small electrodes have a little bit of black on their tips. No visible particles form in the water. A very clean process indeed. The water remains clear and colorless. My last 4 hour run had a particle size of 0.114 micron and 7 ppm. The ppm is tested with ICP and very accurate. As I said previously, the water could have been contaminated with particles this size and the real silver undetected due to its small size. Best is a picture on a e-microscope. I'll get one when I have some time. I have not used the distilled and deionized water in the HVAC setup yet. The water that gave me 0.114 micron size was distilled in a hi-tech quartz still at the chemistry dept. at the local university. I doubt contamination but you never know... Maybe the expensive ZetaSizer had a malfunction? Not likely. I lie awake at night... :) Maybe the 50 Hz here in SA is the culprit. I don't know. But the CS is colorless and has a nice T-effect and is stable. (My oldest batch is about a month old. Too early to tell.) PS. I tried making HVAC at first by using silver wires in the water as in the 30 volt dc process. It creates quite a bit of gray particles in suspension that settle out overnight. I feel that this setup is not worth the trouble. Bruce Marx has a real inspired electrode setup. I wonder what the spec is on his CS? Come on! Someone test it already! ---end paste--- Well Nancy, if you have read this far, you deserve a medal! I feel that the real question about cs is how does it kill bugs best. Is size important? Some scientists now feel that colloidal as opposed to ionic particle size is dangerous in the long term. I am suspecting the same, but this is just a hunch. I only use cs in an emergency now. To really know about HVAC, I urge you and fellow researchers to buy some cs from CSPro and Motherlode and have it tested at a lab. This will settle the argument once and for all. But then again, who says cs must be 0.001 to 0.004 microns in size? Or 0.005 to 0.015 microns? I am starting to suspect that there a very view people on the planet who really know what they are talking about when it comes to cs. And I think that the people who know sit in large farmaceutical labs and they are not saying anything. I feel that the 30v cs is the best and safest bet for now. Many people drink lots of the stuff and nobody has ever had any side effects (that we can detect for now). And we all know that it works very well (mostly). I apologize for not being more clear in answering your questions. It demonstrates that I don't really know much about cs. But I hope that the little bit helps. God bless, Christian von Wechmar Stellenbosch, South Africa
