Hi David You wrote:
"Sure he knew the difference between ions and particles, he just had wrong info about the the proportions of those things in the batches he was testing." Based on Frank's website commentary? I re-read Professor Gibbs book, page 13 "The total silver concentration reported on the products in this study are determined from chemical analysis and are a function of: 1. the particulate silver 2. the dissolved silver" While most of the products investigate for this study have concentrations of silver in the 3 to 10 parts per million [ppm] range, the actual proportions between dissolved and particulate material were rarely discussed in a quantitative manner on the labels." (Yes Prof Gibbs called Ionic Silver dissolved) Since I cannot cut and paste from his book, and have to type all the quotes from it, I have to for brevity of time just type the highlights. "In fact, anaylses conducted on these products indicated that a great deal of the material in many of the samples was dissolved (my parenthesis, ionic) in nature." Prof Gibbs continues to state the lower concentrations of particulate silver were found and the combined value of both forms of silver were given.. "While the concentration of silver in colloidal silver samples is important, concentration alone is misleading without knowing the proportion of dissolved material to particulate material and without knowing the size distribution of particles. We should always try to ascertain the proportion of dissolved material to particulate silver material as well as the size distrbution of the particulat silver if we are to know the quality of the colloidal silver product we are using." In the previous 2 paragraph he address large particle size as well as concentration, "As an example, in a ten ppm sample actually composed of half dissolved and half particulate there could be only five ppm of colloidal particles present." In the next paragraph, "In the example discused above having having half of the silver in particulate form [5ppm] dominate by large particles [greater than 1 micron] the efeective colloidal silver present could be very low, even less than one ppm, hardly an effective suspension of colloidal silver." The next chapter deals with confocal microscopic examination of the colloidal silver, in which he eliminates four samples for large particles on the bottom of the samples "of unindentifiable material, hair, large Silver particles not in suspension, fibrous organic material (paper fibers)." A fifth sample is eliminated because of bacteria. A sixth sample was eliminated for having high amounts of Flocs (clustering of silver particles). Three additional samples had flocs. We are now at 6 eliminated Prof G then said he found three samples "with a number of small clusters along with a number of small silver particles." We are now at 9 eliminated Prof G then went to example dried samples under the confocal microscope. Anything other than metal particles. Subsequently Prof G went to TEM examination. I am not an expert on TEMs although I do remember that the TEMs I ran across use a vacuum chamber for the specimens to be observed. (Has anyone place Ionic Silver in a vacuum chamber to "boil away the water and thus eliminate the possibility of producing silver oxide in the drying process?) After examination all but one product was eliminated as ideal. This I believe was rated 5 stars. (There were several 4 star products with 3 star, 2 star, 1 star making up the balance and are all are referenced in the Bacteria study in vitro.) By page 25 there is commentary about AC and DC generated Colloidal Silver with the statement that DC was the highest in Ionic Silver and had very low level of metal particles. The AC process was the method in which all the "4 star product" (out of 5 stars) were produced. (The HVAC Colloidal Silver is produced either by a total submersion method or a plasma underwater arc method.) "I think its pretty obvious CSL did all the analysis of the physical properties of the 15 samples." On what do you base that assumption? It isn't obvious to me. Nowhere did CSL labs receive mention in the book. It could be equally obvious that the 15 samples were tested at Univeristy of Delaware. Their are also plenty of FDA approved labs in the vicinity of Delaware but why use them if you have facilities in house. "In addition to that, they actually 'made' some of the samples." Did MesoSilver make some of the samples or CSL? The report mentions 15 retail products. Are you suggesting "Ringers" were used or one or more of the retail products were manufactured by Frank's company? "'Where' Ron Gibbs did the follow up testing on the samples I dont know. " "Perhaps the booklet reveals 'where', but I just tried to read Ron Gibbs booklet again and to be honest I gave up. Its a pointless excercise. Obviously he did NOT know what he was playing with" (Please see my comments above, the booklet is quite specific.) "and before he even began the tests he had a preconcieved idea that particles not ions would be most effective. (See page 11)." I agree, Prof Gibbs had a bias towards only metallic particle Colloidal Silver. That isn't proper scientific procedure. Had Prof Gibbs object was to test Ionic Silver vs. Metallic particulate Silver, vs Mild Silver Protein as to ideal samples of each and the effectiveness against bacteria, this would have been more informative, IMHO. His book stated purpose was to scrutinize retail colloidal silver products. "Knowing what we now know, its not a very impressive publication at all." Well I get the impression it was abreviated from a much larger document. "It has some intersting observations (such as bateria growing on MSP)" Well, I wouldn't damn all MSP as ineffective, just possible one retail brand that was of questionable quality. "but really its just a defacto sales pitch for mesosilver." Well, I think it is a pitch for Metal Particle Silver. It states that High Quality "Colloidal Silver" (read metallic Silver particulate) is clear (colorless). MesoSilver has an apparent Dark Ice Tea Color. If anything the book seems to have a contrary statement as to what is high quality Colloidal Silver, if the book was to promote MesoSilver. "2 electrons missing? I thought it was just one." That was an error in haste, I have to type fast, other concerns. As to Ions, etc: "That may be technically correct but it just confuses people. I think most people on this list would say the terms 'particle' and 'colloid' are interchangable, but an ion is neither of those." Well the confusion isn't helped by Sellers of Bottle Colloidal Silver and Colloidal Silver Generators. I can only refer to what is taught in school, found in reference books, etc. An Ion is a charged particle as an Atom or a Molecule is a particle. Also, Colloids can be made from Compounds. So can Molecules. One can also say Metallic Oxide Particle. A Particle is just a bit of matter. There are Sub atomic particles which are particles and not Colloids for example. The undissolved particles that are in suspension, but not in the Colloidal Range are called coarse mixtures. The Scottish chemist Thomas Graham discovered (1860) that certain substances (e.g., glue, gelatin, or starch) could be separated from certain other substances (e.g., sugar or salt) by dialysis. He gave the name colloid to substances that do not diffuse through a semipermeable membrane (e.g., parchment or cellophane) and the name crystalloid to those which do diffuse and which are therefore in true solution. However, you can have nano particles that will diffuse through "cellophane, etc," which are smaller than the colloidal range. These are in suspension, but are not dissolved if held in Brownian Motion and are not homegenously mixed. Colloidal particles are larger molecules, but too small to be observed directly with a conventional microscope; however, their shape and size can be determined by electron microscopy. In a true solution the particles of dissolved substance are of molecular size and are thus smaller than colloidal particles; in a coarse mixture (e.g., a suspension) the particles are much larger than colloidal particles. The Colloidal range is considered to be 1 micron to 1 nanometer. That being the case, MesoSilver is not a colloid by definition, as the particle size is less than a Nanometer in size as referenced in Mesosilver's advertising. However, I know of Ionic Silver at 0.05 microns when measured, which would be in the Colloidal range. "(Unless its a Natural-Immunogenics Argentyn 23 Ionic Colloidal Particle)" When I Google Colloidal Ion, this comes up: DEFINITION AND CLASSIFICATION OF COLLOIDS (excerpt) Ions of low relative molecular mass, with a charge opposite to that of the colloidal ion, are called counterions; if their charge has the same sign as that of the colloidal ion, they are called co-ions. A colloidal electrolyte is an electrolyte which gives ions of which at least one is of colloidal size. This term therefore includes hydrophobic sols, ionic association colloids, and polyelectrolytes. http://old.iupac.org/reports/2001/colloid_2001/manual_of_s_and_t/node33.html http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15379966 We calculate colloid-colloid correlations using an integral equation theory recently introduced to study charged colloidal suspensions (Anta and Lago 2002 J. Chem. Phys. 116 10514). Colloid-ion, colloid-colloid and ion-ion correlations are treated using different levels of approximation. The colloid-ion direct correlation function (DCF) Ion expulsion ultrafiltration method Document Type and Number: United States Patent 5176834 http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5176834.html Full Patent at http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=5&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22Colloidal+Ion%22&OS=%22Colloidal+Ion%22&RS=%22Colloidal+Ion%22 United States Patent 5,176,834 Christian , et al. January 5, 1993 Abstract: A method for reducing the concentration of target co-ions in a liquid feed mixture comprising target co-ions and counter-ions by adding a colloid such as a polyelectrolyte or surfactant comprising a colloidal ion and colloidal counter-ions to the feed mixture wherein the colloidal ion has the same type of charge as the target co-ion. The feed mixture containing the colloid is filtered through an ultrafiltration membrane having pores small enough to block the passage of the colloidal ion. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18698724?ordinalpos=7&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum 1: Nano Lett. 2008 Sep;8(9):2949-53. Epub 2008 Aug 12.Click here to read Links Exciton Storage by Mn(2+) in Colloidal Mn(2+)-Doped CdSe Quantum Dots. Beaulac R, Archer PI, van Rijssel J, Meijerink A, Gamelin DR. (the 2+ indicates that the Colloidal Manganese is in an Ion my parenthesis) [email protected]. Colloidal Mn (2+) doped CdSe quantum dots showing long excitonic photoluminescence decay times of up to tau exc = 15 mus at temperatures over 100 K are described. These decay times exceed those of undoped CdSe quantum dots by approximately 10 (3) and are shown to arise from the creation of excitons by back energy transfer from excited Mn (2+) dopant ions. A kinetic model describing thermal equilibrium between Mn (2+ 4)T 1 and CdSe excitonic excited states reproduces the experimental observations and reveals that, for some quantum dots, excitons can emit with near unity probability despite being approximately 100 meV above the Mn (2+ 4)T 1 state. The effect of Mn (2+) doping on CdSe quantum dot luminescence at high temperatures is thus completely opposite from that at low temperatures described previously. I don't think the people at Natural Immunogenic are the only ones that know about Colloidal Ions or Scientific terms. Best Regards, Steve -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: [email protected] Address Off-Topic messages to: [email protected] The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
