Thanks for the clarification Ian. You're the last clause of your statement:, "The manner of creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight forward, if not fully understood." , certainly applies to me.
My comments to excerpts from your last post: Ian: "The manner of creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight forward, if not fully understood. One would need to add protons to create a positive charge, which would create a different element? Hydrogen ions (protons) have a positive charge and are unlikely to combine with silver (there are no silver hydrides). They are more likely to be reduced at the cathode as hydrogen gas." JOH: I am suggesting not that the proton enters the nucleus of a silver atom to create a new element, but that it may be somehow associated---is that vague enough?---with the metallic Ag cluster. Some of the hydrogen bubbles off at the electrode; some stays in solution as ionized water, balancing the pair of oxygen atoms. Isn't pH the log of the number of free protons in the solution? If the electrolysis current took an extra electron rather than donating on it would leave a proton. Could some of them be contributing to the plus charge on/around(?) the silver cluster? Ian: "Silver Colloid particles are agrigates of either single silver ions (simple ions) creating complex ions, or simple ions and metallic atoms which will have a charge lower than the former. Monoatomic ions are reactive because of their size, multiatomic ions are able to accept more electrons per particle." JOH: What is the difference between a "complex silver ion" and a metallic silver colloid particle? Or, what is the difference between multiatomic ions---and a colloid? If multiatomic ions are able to accept more electrons than a bit of metal, doesn't that make them more reactive? Is there a difference between a multiatomic silver ion and a charged metallic silver particle? Are we making some of both? Most everyone agrees that a silver salt, most certainly highly ionized, is more reactive that a silver colloidal particle. Is that so? I think the question I have when boiled down is: if a single-atom "ion" is a "colloid", then what distinguishes it from a "dissolved" atom "in solution"? Thanks for your continuing instruction. Please be patient with my questions, they arise more from intuition than technical knowledge. And yes, I remain confused. James Osbourne, Holmes [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Ivan Anderson [SMTP:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 7:59 AM To: [email protected] Subject: CS>Solutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed ----- Original Message ----- From: James Osbourne, Holmes <[email protected]> > HI everyone, Hi, Solution: A homogenous mixture that remains mixed indefinitely. Particle size... 0.01 to 1 nm Will not filter out. Will not reflect light (no Tyndal) Colloid: Heterogeneous mixture. Remain dispersed by molecular motion (Brownian) Particle size...1 to 1000 nm Reflects light. Ion: (Physics and chemistry) Atom, radical, molecule or aggregate that has lost or gained one or more electrons. (Biology and medicine) The dissolved part of a solution (solute) which exists as charged atoms or molecules. > > Once again, the issue of what is "dissolved", "ionic", or a "charged > colloidal particle" arises. > > Bruce does think the silver made by his devices has a positive charge. He > does not think the charge is generated in the same manner as the charge > exists on a single Ag atom which is presenting its valence charge. There is no other way to create a positive charge other than removing electrons that I know of. > I believe when Bruce speaks of "ionic silver" he means a single atom, > dissolved in the water, with its outer shell receptive to bonding with > another atom. A colloidal particle is positive, but not as reactive as the > monoatomic silver. Pitty he does not speak *colloid science*. Silver Colloid particles are agrigates of either single silver ions (simple ions) creating complex ions, or simple ions and metallic atoms which will have a charge lower than the former. Monoatomic ions are reactive because of their size, multiatomic ions are able to accept more electrons per particle. > How the positive charge is created is not know by me. Since charge is > quantatized(sp?) Whilst an electron has a particular charge, the energy required to remove or gain one is different in each element, and the conductivity is therefore different also. The energy required to remove a second electron is much higher than to remove the first... an so on. > , it means there is either a missing electron or an extra > proton somewhere. Or, something else? Could an ionized hydrogen > nucleus from the water be somehow stuck to the silver cluster? I wish I > could go back to school... There is no need to complicate things James. The manner of creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight forward, if not fully understood. One would need to add protons to create a positive charge, which would create a different element? Hydrogen ions (protons) have a positive charge and are unlikely to combine with silver (there are no silver hydrides). They are more likely to be reduced at the cathode as hydrogen gas. BTW, the zeta potential of a colloid is a measurement of the electrostatic repulsion between the charged particles and their Stern layers (neutralising layer of water molecules which travel with the particle) and the diffused layer, and derives its value from the charge on the particle, and is measured chiefly by measuring the particles mobility. Confused? > James Osbourne, Holmes Ivan. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: [email protected] -or- [email protected] with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: [email protected] List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
