Bob, You named the pcx file chart.dat ...so my computer thinks its a dat file. Can you rename please.
Thanks - Ivan ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: silver-list <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, 15 September 1999 23:49 Subject: CS>Moving ppm > Hi Ya'All; > > Well its that time again. Soince I store all of my CS experiment in > clear 1oz coke bottles I get the please of watching them. Nothing > happenes to the colorless CS. > > So I measured the ppm of some of the high rollers after about two weeks, > and wht did I find some went up ans one went down, and it appears to be > associated with the conductivity of the water. > > Check the pcx file attached. > > Comments please. > > "Ole Bob" > -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: [email protected] -or- [email protected] with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: [email protected] List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> From ?...@??? Sat Feb 13 14:47:40 2010 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:40:13 +0100 From: Steve King <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CS>How to heat solution? Message-Id: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-PMFLAGS: 128 0 Yes. I was thinking about inductive fields too. I made as much space as possible between the heating pad and the CS jar by using a large plastic tub and a nonconductive spacer under the glass jar. - not as good as gas, I admit! but my batches run so long, I don't know if If can afford gas. my other thought was to somehow shield the heating pad with tin foil or similar? >Just a thought for you, maybe you could try heating with something other >than the electricity to avoid any inductive fields. A gas cook top or a >propane camp stove. >-----Original Message----- >From: James Osbourne, Holmes <[email protected]> >To: '[email protected]' <[email protected]> >Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 4:51 AM >Subject: RE: CS>How to heat solution? > > >>Try an immersion aquarium heater. >>James Osbourne, Holmes >> >>[email protected] >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Steve King [SMTP:[email protected]] >>Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 4:44 AM >>To: [email protected] >>Subject: CS>How to heat solution? >> >>>>Heating the water during processing also stirs things up a bunch, but >>it does introduce a whole host of variables that are difficult to >>control and not well understood. >> >> >>Hi all >> >>I'm new to the list and I have already found it >>very very valuable. So here's a quick question >>about heat. . . >> >>I have found when using DC (777SE) that ambient >>temperature seems to greatly affect production >>rate. On a cold day, the process takes a lot longer. >> >>Any ideas about how to keep the process warm >>without introducing more variables. For instance, >>I would hesitate to put the glass CS vessel on a >>hot plate because the elements in the hot >>plate will introduce fields into the solution. >>What about a large container of water on >>a heating pad with the CS jar elevated (on >>glass) inside , like a double boiler? e.g.: >> >> lid >> CS jar >> non-conducting spacer >> large container of water >> heating pad >> >> >>In general, how far from the heating pad >>would the CS jar need to be to greatly >>reduce the amount of electrical fields >>that the solution is subjected to? >> >>thanx! >> >>Steve King >> >> >> >>-- >>The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. >> >>To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: >>[email protected] -or- [email protected] >>with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. >> >>To post, address your message to: [email protected] >> >>List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> >> >> > > From ?...@??? Sat Feb 13 14:47:40 2010 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:42:32 +0100 From: Steve King <[email protected]> To: [email protected], [email protected] Subject: RE: CS>How to heat solution? Message-Id: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-PMFLAGS: 128 0 >Or just monitor the current flow and stop when you reach a certain >reading when the electrodes go back in the water after cleaning >them and stirring the CS. That's a basic conductivity measurement, >right there, built right into the system. How do I monitor current flow without inserting an amp meter in the circuit? are there commercially available units that do this? thanx! -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: [email protected] -or- [email protected] with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: [email protected] List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> From ?...@??? Sat Feb 13 14:47:40 2010 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:11:07 +0200 From: Guenter Poelz <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CS>Solutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-PMFLAGS: 128 0 Hello, let me contribute with what I have learned in chemistry. Many things have been stated already many times in this list. I will try to clarify some statements: Ions and colloidal particles both are charged, but they are different. - Metallic ions are formed when one or more electrons are stripped from the outer surface of the uncharged metallic atom. Such an ion is then positively charged. (It is also possible, but much more difficult, to attach an ion to a metallic atom to generate a negatively charged ion). Ions are also often formed by breaking a molecule into two "radicals". If the electrons are unevenly divided, one part (with too much electrons) becomes a negative ion, the other one (with lacking electrons) becomes a positive one. Water is an excellent medium to penetrate into salt molecules and breaks it into ions (kitchen-salt NaCl is broken into Na+ and Cl-; also water itself H2O breaks into H+ and OH- ). - Colloidal particles are formed by uncharged atoms or molecules. In the formation process they lump together, bound loosely e.g. by water bridges, but can fasten the bonds by chemical activity. These giant molecules are formed so quickly that H+ or OH- (depending on the kind of colloid) are caught and also built into the loose structure and gives the colloidal particle its charge. What does this mean for our CS? With low voltage direct current (LVDC) we detach silver ions from the silver rod connected to the (positive) anode. In our solution we have then silver ions Ag+, H+ and OH-. But when the Ag+ travel through the water, some of them recombine with the OH- and form neutral AgOH molecules. These molecules now lump together and include H+ ions. These positively charged colloids repel each other and prevent the formation of larger particles or even precipitation of the whole stuff. The faster the colloids are formed the more H+ ions are included, the stronger is the repulsion which leads to smaller colloids. Adding salts to a colloidal solution means adding of foreign ions which are attached to the colloids and disturb the repulsion. Precipitation will result. I think with LVDC we generate colloidal silver oxide which is formed from the AgOH by chemical transformation. If one wants to generate metallic colloids one has to use a different process: One has to evaporate metallic silver by sparking under water, by evaporating silver with a energetic laser beam, by ultrasound etc. These silver atoms, dispersed in water, also lump together, but typically include OH- ions. To improve the insulation of the colloids from each other, and not only rely on the electric repulsion, some companies manage to cover the colloids with a skin of organic compounds, e.g. proteins. To what group of colloids the HVDC or HVAC CS is belonging, I have no idea. Hopefully this helps to clarify, Günter "James Osbourne, Holmes" schrieb: > > Thanks for the clarification Ian. You're the last clause of your > statement:, "The manner of > creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight > forward, if not fully understood." , certainly applies to me. > > My comments to excerpts from your last post: > > Ian: > "The manner of > creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight > forward, if not fully understood. > One would need to add protons to create a positive charge, which > would create a different element? Hydrogen ions (protons) have a > positive charge and are unlikely to combine with silver (there > are no silver hydrides). They are more likely to be reduced at > the cathode as hydrogen gas." > > JOH: I am suggesting not that the proton enters the nucleus of a silver > atom to create a new element, but that it may be somehow associated---is > that vague enough?---with the metallic Ag cluster. Some of the hydrogen > bubbles off at the electrode; some stays in solution as ionized water, > balancing the pair of oxygen atoms. Isn't pH the log of the number of free > protons in the solution? If the electrolysis current took an extra > electron rather than donating on it would leave a proton. Could some of > them be contributing to the plus charge on/around(?) the silver cluster? > > Ian: > "Silver Colloid particles are agrigates of either single silver > ions (simple ions) creating complex ions, or simple ions and > metallic atoms which will have a charge lower than the former. > Monoatomic ions are reactive because of their size, multiatomic > ions are able to accept more electrons per particle." > > JOH: What is the difference between a "complex silver ion" and a metallic > silver colloid particle? Or, what is the difference between multiatomic > ions---and a colloid? If multiatomic ions are able to accept more > electrons than a bit of metal, doesn't that make them more reactive? Is > there a difference between a multiatomic silver ion and a charged metallic > silver particle? Are we making some of both? > > Most everyone agrees that a silver salt, most certainly highly ionized, is > more reactive that a silver colloidal particle. Is that so? > > I think the question I have when boiled down is: > > if a single-atom "ion" is a "colloid", then what distinguishes it from a > "dissolved" atom "in solution"? > > Thanks for your continuing instruction. Please be patient with my > questions, they arise more from intuition than technical knowledge. > > And yes, I remain confused. > > James Osbourne, Holmes > > [email protected] > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ivan Anderson [SMTP:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 7:59 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: CS>Solutions Colloids Ions...was CS information needed > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Osbourne, Holmes <[email protected]> > > > HI everyone, > > Hi, > > Solution: > A homogenous mixture that remains mixed indefinitely. > Particle size... 0.01 to 1 nm > Will not filter out. > Will not reflect light (no Tyndal) > > Colloid: > Heterogeneous mixture. > Remain dispersed by molecular motion (Brownian) > Particle size...1 to 1000 nm > Reflects light. > > Ion: > (Physics and chemistry) > Atom, radical, molecule or aggregate that has lost or gained one > or more electrons. > (Biology and medicine) > The dissolved part of a solution (solute) which exists as charged > atoms or molecules. > > > > Once again, the issue of what is "dissolved", "ionic", or a > "charged > > colloidal particle" arises. > > > > Bruce does think the silver made by his devices has a positive > charge. He > > does not think the charge is generated in the same manner as > the charge > > exists on a single Ag atom which is presenting its valence > charge. > > There is no other way to create a positive charge other than > removing electrons that I know of. > > > I believe when Bruce speaks of "ionic silver" he means a single > atom, > > dissolved in the water, with its outer shell receptive to > bonding with > > another atom. A colloidal particle is positive, but not as > reactive as the > > monoatomic silver. > > Pitty he does not speak *colloid science*. > Silver Colloid particles are agrigates of either single silver > ions (simple ions) creating complex ions, or simple ions and > metallic atoms which will have a charge lower than the former. > Monoatomic ions are reactive because of their size, multiatomic > ions are able to accept more electrons per particle. > > > How the positive charge is created is not know by me. Since > charge is > > quantatized(sp?) > > Whilst an electron has a particular charge, the energy required > to remove or gain one is different in each element, and the > conductivity is therefore different also. The energy required to > remove a second electron is much higher than to remove the > first... an so on. > > > , it means there is either a missing electron or an extra > > proton somewhere. Or, something else? Could an ionized > hydrogen > > nucleus from the water be somehow stuck to the silver cluster? > I wish I > > could go back to school... > > There is no need to complicate things James. The manner of > creating ions by electrolysis is well researched and straight > forward, if not fully understood. > One would need to add protons to create a positive charge, which > would create a different element? Hydrogen ions (protons) have a > positive charge and are unlikely to combine with silver (there > are no silver hydrides). They are more likely to be reduced at > the cathode as hydrogen gas. > > BTW, the zeta potential of a colloid is a measurement of the > electrostatic repulsion between the charged particles and their > Stern layers (neutralising layer of water molecules which travel > with the particle) and the diffused layer, and derives its value > from the charge on the particle, and is measured chiefly by > measuring the particles mobility. > > Confused? > > > James Osbourne, Holmes > > Ivan. > > -- > The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. > > To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: > [email protected] -or- [email protected] > with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. > > To post, address your message to: [email protected] > > List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> From ?...@??? Sat Feb 13 14:47:40 2010 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:12:50 +0000 From: "M. G. Devour" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: RE: CS>How to heat solution? Message-Id: <[email protected]> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT James wrote: > > Try an immersion aquarium heater. I wrote: > Or just monitor the current flow ... It might make up for some of > the small variations in conditions and techniques as long as you > keep things as constant as you can. James wonders: > I thought he was talking about standardizing the start-water > temperature for constancy. James Osbourne, Holmes And I was just suggesting he not worry about variations in room temp and use current measurement (conductivity) to get comparable results run to run. See, there was logic to it... somewhere! <grin> Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [[email protected] ] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: [email protected] -or- [email protected] with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: [email protected] List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
