Ivan, My Thanks for a great Post.
Arnold ----- Original Message ----- From: Ivan Anderson <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 5:46 AM Subject: CS>Colour and silver oxide (long) was CS Makers. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "coyote" <[email protected]> > > Hi KD'C, > > Lot of ground you covered below! > I have a shot at answering what I can, my comments prefaced with ***. > > > > At 04:33 PM 4/5/00 +1200, you wrote: > > >>From An earlier post of mine > > > > ## Thanks Ivan > > I don't plan to start an arguement, I would just like this issue to > be cleared up or at least expanded upon and open to discussion. The > dogma just doesn't correlate with my personal observations. > > Therefore, I question the dogma. [Defined as 'established pat > answers'] > > I've heard this theory endlessly repeated and worded as though it > came from the same source, yet none of my chemist friends can go > beyond, "I guess it's possible". Of course, they don't mess with CS, > but you'd think they would have at least heard of this effect in use > elsewhere. I have yet to find confirmation outside CS circles. > > ***No questions - no answers! > > Colloid chemistry is a complex field and only those involved know much > about it. It is not surprising that many chemists no little of colloid > properties. Indeed not many chemists know much about electrolysis. To > make matters worse, metallic sols are an obscure subset of colloid > science. There is not much call for nano-sized pure metal solutions, > even though nano-sized metallic powders are showing new and exciting > properties and are under active investigation and experimentation. > There is some use for gold sols in marking organic molecules for > measurement etc. and these sols do display the characteristics of > changing colour with particle size.*** > > > > > 2nd subject > > According to my Dr/PHD chemist friend, there is a newish instrument > out there that determines particle size using the Tyndal effect > [another unheard of term , at least, in the pharmeceutical research > area] > > "I've never heard of the Tyndal effect, but I can tell you that our > crystallographers use a "Lasex" particle size device which is a fiber > optic cable that can be put into a suspension to determine average > particle size, but only after it has been calibrated." > > ***The Tyndal effect is often included in the formal definitions of > colloids vs solutions, but is only a minor effect which has been over > shadowed by such effects as Raman scattering etc. which are the basis > for many laser particle sizers. However, you will be hard pressed to > find particle sizers that measure below 10nm, and even these are > pretty sophisticated lab models. To measure below about 2nm is quite > difficult and measuring the speed of particle travel is often > employed.*** > > > Anyhow, please don't take offence. I don't have an ax to grind, just > some logical holes to fill. Believers can believe what they want. > > >======================== > > > > > >Ah, the question of colour never dies ;-) > > > > > >I can possibly be of help here, but let me say at the outset, > > >that all CS within the accepted colour range (clear, through > > >yellow-green, yellow and gold) exhibit very good antimicrobial > > >properties. > > ### I don't doubt that and never said that any color was "bad" or > even that whatever produces the color is not effective. I simply don't > know. > > My rule is, if it looks yukky or weird, I fill a drain with it. I've > filled a lot of drains. > > > > Silver nitrate is effective, no? > > If sand were mixed in with CS, the CS would still be effective...and > the sand harmless. But, neither sand or nitrates are Bredig sol pure > metal colloids. > > > > > > > >The colour of a colloid is dependant on the particle size, and > > >how that affects the reflection, refraction and extinction of > > >visible light. The smaller the particle size the smaller the > > >wavelength of light it will absorb leaving its complimentary > > >colour to be transmitted. > > > > > >Particles so small that they absorb UV light (outside the visible > > >range) transmit the full visible spectrum and look colourless. As > > >the particle size increases (by small amounts) so the wavelength > > >of the absorbed light increases, and the transmitted > > >complimentary light changes, as noted above. > > ## This begs another question. > > If the particle size is so small as to not transmit a color, how > would a colorimeter possibly be used to accurately determine > concentration? There is a direct contradiction here. > > ***Colorimeters use a complexing agent to bind with the specimen, the > resultant colour density is measured.*** > > > Also, why does that color stick to the glass after storing for > several weeks leaving the suspension clear yet still potent? > > Do I have defective glass? Has anyone else noticed this? Honest, it > happens without fail, for me at least. > > *** The colour is a property of the particles plating out upon the > walls. The question is why do particles plate out at all ... the > answer no doubt includes all sorts of reasons, including particle > size, the charge of the particle, the particle makeup etc. I do not > have this problem myself, but the vessels I use to generate in, do > show plating on the walls.*** > > > > > > >Colour depth, ie the strength of a particular colour, is directly > > >proportional to the concentration of the solution (as you > > >surmise). This relationship (Beer-Lambert Law) is exploited by > > >colorimeters and spectroscopy in determining concentration of > > >solutions. > > >####I have watched unregulated batches go from clear to light > yellow to reddish to brown to deep brown to black. I have run clear > batches of CS that had various colors of deposits, stirred it up and > got yellowish or brown as a result. The yellow deposits are not easily > seen unless illuminated from below. They tend to appear under the pole > that collects silver fuzz. > > No question in my mind that depth of color indicates concentration > of "something", but what something? > > A dark color like red or blue in sufficient concentration will > appear black. A color like yellow can easily be 'swamped out' by a > dark color but whatever it is could be of a different density more > easily suspended in a liquid. > > ...so, perhaps it is uncharged silver oxide particles that clump > together into differing sizes that account for the various colors as > per the theory, whereas the silver particles produced by a constant > current should all be the same size as well as being mostly seperated > by thier charge and not tending to clump. > > *** Yes, I have seen the rainbow also and have deliberately run until > I have a murky grey evil looking brew<g>. I have stained the bench > green, yellow, purple and red. > But to answer some of your questions (hopefully) I'll paste some of a > previous post: > > [It seems clear that the colour of colloids is both a function of > particle size and light absorption. > The particle size would seem to influence which wavelength is > absorbed, and so which is transmitted , reflected and scattered. > The concentration effects the colour depth as per Beer's Law. > > From: > > http://www.svpvril.com/Tyndall.html > > If the particles are much less than 0.1 micron in size, they may be > difficult to discern even with an ultra-microscope, but the beam of > rays passing through the liquid will still be observed. Finally, if > the particles are as small as 1 millimicron, the light scattering > becomes so insignificant that this phenomenon also disappears and the > liquid appears quite homogeneous or, as we say, "optically void." > Such, for instance, are ordinary solutions of various substances. > > From: > http://chemwww.bham.ac.uk/research_labs/Research_Profiles/gbpeacock/co > lloidal.htm > > Colloidal, Nanoparticulate Gold > > For a long time now, one of the fundamental scientific conundrums has > been the crossover between discreet molecules and bulk solids. The > behaviours of both are well known and studied, but the intermediate > ground - particles which are neither molecules, nor solids - is more > of a wilderness. This is the area of clusters, nanoparticles and > colloids - entities with dimensions of the order of a few nanometers - > containing a finite number of atoms. One of the most striking examples > of finite-size effects is the vivid red colour of colloidal gold, used > since ancient times for colouring jewellery and staining glass. The > colour arises from a collective oscillation of electrons within the > finite-sized fragments of metallic gold. Nanoparticles of gold remain > suspended in water by Brownian motion, although their charged surface > means that they are severely solvated, and almost certainly have other > ions associated with these otherwise unstable clusters. > > From: > http://mole.chm.bris.ac.uk/goodwin/simon.htm > > Semiconductor Nanoparticles > > My Ph.D. research centres upon the formation and growth of colloidal > nano-particles within complex surfactant media. There are many > industrial applications for ultra-small colloidal particles. For > example, nano-particles have been incorporated in printing inks. In > fact, colloidal particles could be used for virtually anything > coloured (paints, cosmetics, lipsticks, see 9/9/95 issue of New > Scientist). The colour is changed by tuning the size and size > distribution of the colloidal particles. > > It is the optical properties of nano-particles that are of particular > interest here. Precise control of the colloids' scattering and > absorbance properties may be achieved by their growth in surfactant > media > > From: > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/11/981123081416.htm > > Microbiologist Develops Method For Dyeing Fabrics With Gold > "The reagents reduce metallic ions, which are then formed into > particles and grown," Todd explains. "By controlling their size, we > can vary the color. > > "The particles are so small they can't be seen with a microscope," he > adds. "But they produce a bright signal with a very small amount of > metal. And since metals can be combined into alloys, different > combinations can produce a variety of colors."] > > It must be remembered that colloids exist in a state of tenuous > equilibrium, dependent on the balance of the forces of dispersion and > the forces of attraction. And it does not take much to alter this > balance. Colloids do not exist as single atoms (or ions) but discrete > groups of these. It is thought that the groups of atoms form fractal > arrangements, which means definite steps in size and stability. It is > my view that when CS is formed with a low current density, the atoms > form small groups, and become solvated quickly, resisting further > grouping of these groups into larger fractals. Mechanical dispersion > helps in this regard. In this way, there is little fallout, and > minimal dendrite formation on the cathode. One can generate clear sols > of high concentration in this manner, that are very stable. > > > > I get a distinct feeling of seperate issues being lumped together > and called the same thing. > > :-) Ever notice the FDA doing this? To them, Bredig sol silver > colloid, mild silver protien, various silver salts and compounds > [including 'gag' silver cyanide] are all the same thing. Similarly, I > never hear of pure silver in suspensions being mentioned as being a > seperate issue from silver oxides which are near impossible to 'not' > produce in low voltage systems. > > One pole produces hydrogen that usually bubbles off. [If it doesn't > bubble off, it may trap silver ions on the bubble surface and form > that grey fur.] The other pole produces pure oxygen and it's rare to > see the oxygen bubble off. Where does it go? It instantly combines > with silver ions accounting for the black stuff. [silver oxide] If > it's not all on the rods or on the glass, where is it? There is only > one other place it can be...in the water. If colored matter is mixed > in water, you get colored water. If it has no charge to keep it > suspended..... > > Other observation of tarnish on silver tells me that silver oxides > can take on several colors including all those mentioned above. > Granted, there may be numerous chemicals floating around in the air to > account for that color variation. Perhaps no relationship? > > *** Firstly, the tarnish found on silver in air is not silver oxide, > but silver sulphide. Silver is stable in oxygen and water. > > Secondly, the reason that there are no observable oxygen gas bubbles > at the anode is because there is none. > The reduction potential (the energy required to remove an electron) of > silver in water is 0.79V, the reduction potential water into oxygen > gas is 0.815V which requires slightly more energy, but in fact > electrolising water requires an overvoltage of about 0.6v which means > the actual voltage reqired to produce oxygen is double that required > to produce silver ions. Under a low current the reaction is that which > requires the least energy. Silver is oxidised preferentialy to water. > > The situation is different at the cathode, hydrogen gas is produced at > 0.41v but needs an overpotential of about 0.3v, netting just over 7v > under but very close to that required by silver. > Therefore you will see hydrogen gas bubbles but not oxygen. > Silver is much more likely to form silver hydroxide than silver oxide > in any event, and it is likely that there is a small amount of this > present in the solution.*** > > > By all indications I find it likely that, if the theory is accurate, > it's being applied to the wrong particle and make no mistake, there > are 'at least' two distinct and different molecular structures, quite > easily observable, present in low voltage CS production. Their > location and concentration varies. > > > > A note on HVAC. If the electrodes are open to the atmosphere you'll > get ozone [which will oxidize silver ions even more violently than > pure oxygen], nitric acid [if there is moisture and atmospheric > nitrogen present and since the discharge is into water...moisture is > present.], hydrogen and oxygen become a part of the nitric acid. So, > there will also be some silver nitrate made. > > ***Only if the electrodes arc and ionise the air.*** > > > If the electrodes are submerged in water, they still produce ozone, > oxygen and hydrogen but little or no nitric acid. If there is no > current control, all this stuff emulsifies into a sludge which very > quickly turns black. [I have a HVAC generator that does just that in > less than 4 minutes] > > I understand that the leading HVAC unit isolates the electrodes from > the atmosphere and doesn't allow direct contact with water. A Very > good idea that probably makes very good CS. > > *** Again, the electrodes must arc to create ozone or H202, this is > acutally closer to Bredig's system than most realise, he arced > submerged DC electrodes, if my source is correct. I know of no HVAC > colloidal silver generator whose electrodes do not contact the water, > at least after start up. > > Ozone doesn't do anything to silver ions, these are already oxidised > and the energy required to remove a further electron from the Ag+ is > more than ozone can supply. However both ozone and H2O2 will oxidise > metallic silver, producing water and O2 gas in the process. An > interesting experiment, and one which should put to rest the idea of > silver oxide inclusion (I think) is to add a few ml of H2O2 to some > yellow CS, if there are any metallic silver particles they will be > oxidised to Ag+ amid much bubbling and the colloid will probably > become clear, as the large particles are oxidised and broken into > small ionic ones. The H2O2 when applied to ionic yellow colloid with > little metallic inclusion will have no reaction and not lose colour, > H2O2 being stabilised by silver ions and probably visa versa.*** > > > Again, please don't take it personally, but the theory seems only to > cover part of the question in a manner that implies a statement like > "We don't know how to get rid of that yellow or brown color so we're > going to find a way to say it's the greatest thing on Earth" and the > rest goes unaddressed almost as though it were swept under the carpet. > > ***Yes well, don't get me wrong... we have talked about this in the > past, and the consensus would be, that colloidal silver is quite safe > and effective as a clear solution or as a light golden one, with clear > being the one to strive for. > Even if silver oxide is present it does not present any more of a risk > than does silver. > Hey, no offence taken... nice to meet you!*** > > > Well, owning a new Caddy with tinted roll up windows and air > conditioning might be nice, but it doesn't make the traffic go away no > matter what the dealer tells you. > > [So much for lurking] > > k...@czen/KD'C > > > > Ivan. > > > > -- > The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. > > To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: > [email protected] -or- [email protected] > with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. > > To post, address your message to: [email protected] > Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html > List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
