Kevin, thanks for those links. Makes more sense to me now especially where others were talking about using C-S as the mineral necessary for conductibility in distilled water, for a second stage Acid/alkaline silver generator. Quite a few years ago I recall a "miracle water" machine made by some engineer that used a "vortex" as part of his machine. It just hooked up under the sink. All stainless steel and a bit pricy for me so I never pursued that. The information sent to be (this was before the internet) was several pages of his creditenials and explanation of how it worked. I seem to recall that the super fast moving water was critical and maybe it moved around a magnet or something. Showed pictures before/after of plants, blood cells. A lot of details, sure wish I could find that. Sounds to me like the ORP you talked about.
Ed Kasper LAC Santa Cruz, CA -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Nolan [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CS>Acid/alkaline silver generator? Hi, Duncan. Firstly, I'm a newbie to this game and have yet to construct my own unit. Hopefully there are experienced users of Acid/Alkaline makers that can contribute - hello Nina. Having said that, the following observations may help. 1: Magnets will do nothing in respect of separating ions in solution. ("Magnetic conditioning" of water is a separate field of which I have no firm opinion on at this point). 2: You seem to be referring to the DIY plans at angelfire.com.au when talking about 12V as the suggested value. Attempting to use 4000 volts would likely prove either catastrophic or disappointing, depending on the available current draw. A potential (voltage) without current can do nothing - it is current flow over time that matters. Optimum voltage - who knows? I'd try about 30V initially, based on the following. 3: The whole area is "wooley" - there are loose parameters such as appropriate water conductivity, current draw, electrolysing time etc that are just not properly discussed anywhere I have found. An example of trying to "back-figure": Most commercial units seem to be rated at around 50-100 watts. Assuming 12 V DC at the electrodes, that works out at about 4-8 amps current through the cell. That is supposed to be using just filtered tap water. This seems way out. I have done a quick experiment, modifying my CS unit. Two silver plate electrodes, each having a wetted area of 160mm X 40mm X 2(both sides of plate included), separated by 62mm, with 23.7 V applied between them, gave the following current draws: Distilled water: 1.5 mA Tap water: 21.3 mA Tap water plus 1/2 level tsp potassium citrate dissolved in: 393 mA While some vendors of batch type units recommend adding a pinch of sea salt, it would have to be an awfully big pinch to get even 1 amp flowing. So there are big question marks. Tap water conductivity will vary enormously from one locale to another, which to me makes nonsense of any standard procedure assuming tap water, which is just what most units do. Output must be markedly dependent on input. 5: What exactly are we trying to achieve - is it alkaline pH, negative ORP (oxidation/reduction potential), or "microclustering" of the water? All three are variously claimed to be "the" important factor. If it's pH, then just adding a pinch of lime to plain water would suffice. If microclustering is the thing, then despite the impression given by most vendors, only a tiny fraction of the water could be converted, given the running times and likely currents applying to their machines. I think the fellow at www.h-minus-ion.org makes most sense - a highly negative ORP seems to be the number one factor. That translates into maximising the level of dissolved hydrogen. What is not clear is whether the hydrogen is simply dissolved H2 or "nascent" hydrogen as single-atom H, but presumably it is the latter. In that case I would think vigorous stirring around the area of the negative electrode is advisable - sweep hydrogen away before it can combine to produce H2 gas. How much nascent H can water hold? How much is desirable? What factors affect it's stability? I have not even seen these questions asked let alone answered. So without solid parameters to aim for, I'm afraid much is left to anecdotal accounts and vendor statements that often conflict. Vendors can't be blamed for unwillingness to divulge all, but it would help to get some really useful info! 6: There is one site that nicely provides the clues for making a cheap unit - http://www.quantumbalancing.com/e-water.htm. Notice that carbon electrodes seem to be used. Hope the above helps. Regards, Kevin Nolan [email protected] Original message: Hi Kevin; The instructions for the alkaline water maker say that 12 volts is enough... some instructions I saw somewhere indicate you could also use one or 2 magnets to separate the water into ionic components, and that current was not required; only the potential was. Or are we interested in not only ionic separation, but hydrolization to get those hydrogen ions? The 12-volt thing takes several hours...how about if I was to try the 4000 volt microwave circuit I use to make colloidal silver?? Do you think I could make a batch in several minutes? Anyone got some details/ideas on this? Duncan Crow
