Malcolm Stebbins wrote: > Hi Marshall; > Apparently not quite the same. > I understand your point that an equal concentration of the same ions > from whatever source will produce an equal effect - as far as just > those ions are concerned, but I question your assumptions that the > usually attainable ionic concentrations from colloidal silver and > from a solution of silver nitrate are likely to be anywhere near > similar in either quantity, or effect. For one thing, the presence of > the accompanying nitrate ion in a silver nitrate solution allows for > orders of magnitude higher concentrations of both.
I never said they were the same. In fact I was saying what you are saying. That high concentration ionic silver is silver compounds. It is not possible to have a high ionic content without the complementary ion, such as nitrate. > > For another, silver nitrate has been documented to produce argyria in > the past, and in instances on this list the use of one silver-salt > containing compound marketed as a form of colloidal silver has been > implicated in several cases of argyria. This has not been true of > colloidal silver in the forms and concentrations discussed below, nor > confirmably for any reasonable concentrations. See Jason's (AVRA) > page for some confirmatory info on this. Yes, that is what I am saying. > > Your blanket claim that a silver salt must necessarily yield a highly > concentrated form of silver ions in water solution, questionable in > itself, ignores dilution ratios, solubilities of various salts, the > buffering action of other fluids, etc., and thus is considerably more > likely to not only confuse but also to mislead. You are taking the inverse of what I was saying, a logical error. I am not saying that silver salts will always yield a highly concentrated form, obviously that is not true since you can dilute to infinity and some silver salts are not even soluble. I am saying that a high concentration of silver ions must necssarily be a silver salt or other compound form which disassociates when dissolved. > I am not qualified to hold forth on the nature and eventual > disposition of the various ions and compounds that silver nitrate may > form with other constituents in the human system, but it would seem > apparent from the results that silver nitrate produces - as a toxic, > as an antibiotic, and as an argyria source - that they are more > complex than the physical chemistry of your "A" - "B" comparison > model. Not really. Can you name any form of silver other than silver salts (or compounds of silver that disassociate) that will introduce high concentrations of silver ions in water? The only other possible choice is the ions themselves without another complementary ion, which we know cannot exceed around 13 ppm or so. > > Perhaps you assumed that my reply was intended to contrast highly > concentrated ionic silver solutions with and without the presence of a > nitrate ion, but as far as I know there are no ionic silver in water > solutions that can approach the ionic silver concentration of a > "highly concentrated" silver nitrate solution, and no point to > discussing them, Certainly not in the context of someone asking for > some advice and comments on some advertising hype.. Or perhaps you > thought I was comparing the effect of eating straight silver nitrate > crystals to drinking a colloidal silver solution ???????????????? > You only get to do that once, I think. <g> - > The thrust of my response was to address the rather misleading > advertisement Andy had run into, and contrast it with the more > generally accepted info of this group. That's what he asked for; make > sense? > I'll try to make a clearer response to Andy's questions; > It's difficult - some say impossible - to make such a highly > concentrated highly ionised colloidal silver solution by the usual > electrolysis methods that you will give yourself argyria by consuming > it, because the ions and particles will agglomerate or tend to stick > together past a certain concentration, not only as it is being made, > but continuing also afterward in storage. Yes, that is correct. You are supporting my position that a highly concentrated form of silver ions cannot be properly made CS, it must be a silver salt such as silver nitrate. > Of course you still have the same "parts per million" concentration, > because that phrase means parts by weight per million parts of water > (or whatever) and not the number of actual particles, be they ions or > chunks of metal. But there is no evidence that I have found that the colloidal part of CS can cause argyria. > > This leads back to the first part; there is some (not much) > controversy over whether ions or particles are better, and whether > some larger particles might be beneficial in a CS mix. most > experienced researchers and experimenters have concluded that the > ionic form of "colloidal" silver is most effective, particularly <g> > for internal use, but some also maintain that small particles are also > effective against larger pathogens. I believe that both forms are complementary, and that a combination of the two is more widely effective than just one of them. > > Overall, the consensus on this list is: Make it yourself, it's so much > cheaper and better, - use it - you can't go wrong, it ALL works! > And it does, too. > (Well, unless it comes out grey sludge, and even that probably won't > hurt you.) > > Yep, I agree. Marshall > > > > At 09:42 AM 2/27/03 -0500, you wrote: > > >> I think you are confusing the issue. Silver salts such as silver >> nitrate are highly concentrated forms of ionic silver when in >> solution. Thus you are saying that "A" is more likely than "B", when >> "A" and "B" are the same thing. >> >> Marshall >> >> Malcolm Stebbins wrote: >> >> > Hmmm, perhaps one reason you didn't 'know' it is that it's >> > borderline untrue. Ingesting particulate forms of silver, or more >> > likely ingesting silver salts such as silver nitrate will lead to >> > argyria, in time. It is between difficult and impossible to drink >> > enough normal concentration CS - say around 10 to 15 ppm and ~85% >> > ionic - to give yourself argyria; you'll probably drown first, >> > since it would take about 50 gallons a day for a year or so, >> > minimum. >> > >> > At 12:13 AM 2/27/03 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> > >> >> Okay, I reread the web site and I guess he is claiming that >> >> bigger chunks are better than ions. Does anyone know if this is >> >> true? Also, if you keep reading, he claims that "Ingestion of >> >> highly concentrated forms of ionic silver is known to cause >> >> argyria, a permanent discoloration of the skin." I didn't know >> >> that either. >> >> >> >> Andy >> >> >> >> --- >> >> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >> >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> >> Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 1/21/03 >> > >> > --- >> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system >> > (http://www.grisoft.com). >> > Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: >> > 1/21/03 >> > >> >> --- >> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 1/21/03 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 1/21/03 >
