Forwarded to SilverList FYI:
Hi Marv,
> Mike,
> I have been wanting to contact you. This is a good excuse:
> "I won't clog up the list with the detailed measurements, but they
> are available to anyone who wants them."
> I advise putting it on the list, as many of us are keenly interested
> in what you are doing.
Thanks for the email. Yesterday, I discovered the battery contact
was intermittent, so all the measurements are suspect. I am in the
process of repeating them, but I change the configuration so there
is no direct comparison to any of the previous work.
A few general rules are becoming clear. We have been barking up the
wrong tree. A high voltage is not needed to get appreciable
conduction with typical distilled water. The initial conductance is
not constant with applied voltage. It increases with applied
voltage, which is why everyone uses the highest voltage they can get
without destroying their current regulator.
The high voltage has several undesirable consequences.
1. The ion velocity is proportional to the voltage gradient. This
means ions arrive at the cathode faster.
2. When the ions arrive at the cathode, the voltage gradient
compresses the ion cloud and keeps it close to the cathode. This
increases the probability that particles will form.
3. The high cloud density means the particles become bigger. They
become visible as black crud that coats the electrodes and falls to
the bottom of the glass, where they form a smudge. When we wipe this
off, it forms a heavy black residue on the tissue. This represents
silver that we are throwing away.
The particles also coat the side of the glass, eventually turning it
black. After a while, the coating may become silvery as the
particles merge. This can be difficult to remove, and may require
H2O2.
All these problems disappear with the ULVDC process (abbreviate to
ULV to save time.)
With ULV, the initial voltage across the electrodes is 2V to 4V.
This is an order of magnitude less than current systems, but the
initial current may still be 180uA. This is in the same ballpark as
I used to get with 27 Volts!
With the low voltage, the ion velocity is an order of magnitude
less, so the ions take longer to reach the cathode. This means more
time for ion production before we start running into problems with
the ion cloud forming at the cathode.
See Ivan's excellent post on electrolysis at
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m46719.html
When the cloud starts to form, the lower voltage gradient means the
cloud density is much less than before. This means the ions have
less probability of interacting, so fewer particles are produced.
This means less silver is wasted as black residue when we wipe the
rods.
The particles that do form are smaller, so they don't have as much
tendency to fall to the bottom and form a black smudge. And the
sides of the glass stay clear instead of turning black.
> I am very interested in what your circuitry and results are. I
> took an Electronics Tech. course in college, just prior to the
> demise of teaching vacuum tube theory. Because I decided to leave
> electronics, as a vocation, I have not kept up with the industry.
I don't think many people would find it complicated. Just put a 22k
to 47k resistor in series with a 9V battery. The most difficult
thing is to mount it so the leads don't break. I cut a small piece
from a pcb with plated-through holes to mount the resistor and
connect the leads. I wrapped the leads so they crossed around the
back of the board for strain relief and applied a bit of ordinary
plastic electrical tape to keep them in place.
> Because of what you and Bob Berger have been writing about, I
> would like to build a system that would regulate voltage to a 1.2v
> DC max. A possibility may be the use of the zener diode? I am not
> sure how to go about it. Also, some way to automatically shut it
> down at 1ma/square inch of anode area (or some adjustable current
> limit, would be best) Any help that you can give, with the
> circuitry is much appreciated.
1.2V may be a little low, but you could certainly try it.
I'd advise against any kind of complicated circuitry. You need the
simplest, most robust system possible.
As soon as you start adding electronics, you will run into failures
due to ESD events (static discharge - very difficult to shield
against when you have external leads.)
Also, complex electronics is very difficult to diagnose in the field
without complex test equipment. So when things go wrong, you have no
way to support someone at the other end of the telephone to tell
them what to do.
Even with something as simple as a single resistor in series with a
battery, you will have reliability problems. The battery connector
can go bad or intermittent. (A thin coat of ordinary vaseline will
clean the crud off and allow true metal-to-metal contact. This
reduces the contact resistance by a factor of ten, but a new coat
must be applied every couple of months. So it's a maintenance
problem, but I don't know of any permanent contact cleaners.)
The solder joints can corrode. You need to clean the solder flux
residue properly - a mixture of 30% isopropyl alcohol and 70% laquer
thinner which is primarily toluene or xylene, followed by a wash in
distilled water. Dry at high ambient temperature to drive out
moisture, and apply a good sealant. (Not silicone rubber - this will
corrode copper when moisture permeates the silicone.)
There are many good sealants on the market, but they are expensive
and many have short life. I'm looking for a good, inexpensive
electronics sealant and will let you know when I find it. I'm
looking at ordinary nail polish. It is inexpensive and readily
available, but I need to do some research to see if anyone else has
experience using it as a sealant.
The wires can corrode under the insulation so it's hard to detect.
When people are in a hurry, they can jank on the leads and break
them. So the wires need good strain relief, and the sealant must
close the gap where the copper exits. It is best to apply the
sealant under a microscope so you can check the quality of the
solder joints and make sure any gaps are closed.
> My friend, David Topazian, is a founder of MedSend. He is a
> retired dental surgeon, past president of the Christian Medical
> and Dental Society. MedSend began as a collaboration with another
> member of the CMDS. MedSend provides financial support to
> graduating medical/dental students who feel called to serve GOD as
> foreign missionaries. Most students carry such a heavy debt-load
> that it is not feasible for them to serve as missionaries. MedSend
> makes it possible for them to go, buy paying their educationally
> related debts, as they serve as missionaries.
> My desire is to create an inexpensive CS unit, that makes a
> consistent product, that will run unattended on whatever voltage
> source available. A reliable CS source would be of immense value
> to these folks. Once developed, I plan to build the units and
> provide them to MedSend without charge. I would send them to
> Connecticut and MedSend would distribute them to the nearly 150
> missionaries presently being supported in the field. Naturally, I
> would need to prepare instructions, troubleshooting guide, CS
> protocols for the various uses, a few CS success testimonies etc.
The simplest system is a 22k to 47k resistor in series with 9V, and
a watch to tell the time. We need to develop a method of detecting
the quality of the distilled water, and a way to tell when the
process is done when the quality of the distilled water changes.
The salt test is a very good indication of ion concentration, and it
is easy to teach people how to do. It can be done anywhere salt is
available. This could be useful to tell how long to brew the cs.
There should be lots of discarded 9V batteries from boom boxes, or
you could make a holder for 6 used 1.5V AA's. The current drain is
so low they are usable for many batches.
Remember to coat the battery terminals with vaseline. This keeps
them clean and greatly reduces intermittent contact problems.
> I expect that a source of DW or DI water would be a problem to
> many. Perhaps I would need to provide them with a few gallons of
> product, or a DW generator?
Distilled water is a problem. If it is available, the quality may be
questionable. I had great difficulty finding suitable dw here in
Canada. The local WallMart dw is not the best, but it is quite
satisfactory and always available.
> This project is in its infancy. Anything that you can do to help
> is very much appreciated.
I am involved with a similar project to send units to farming towns
in Russia. They are very smart people, sometimes with limited
resources. But I know they have plenty of used batteries:)
If you like, you can post this reply to the Silver List and see if
anyone has more ideas.
> Best regards,
>>:) Marv
> Marvin Hacker
Best Regards,
Mike
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