Comments on the comments from silverpuppy
At 01:42 PM 5/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:
To List,
Well, I appreciate the opportunity to help people who email me with
questions, but it is starting to take too much time, and probably the
questions should be posted to the list so others have a chance to
comment.
From now on, I will post any email I get regarding cs, but remove the
sender's full name or any personal information that may cause
embarrassement.
Here's one that asks my opinion on two commercial cs generators:
----------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Mike:
> I am a lurker on the silver list and barely understand what ya'll
> are talking about.
> I am about to get my first generator and have it down to two, the
> silverpuppy and the silvergen ....the $99.00 deals. For one who
> cannot program a VCR what would you suggest?
> Also, I cannot find anywhere that tells me the shelf life of CS.
> If I have the Silverpuppy what would the shelf life be? I plan on
> using the CS for my family and Labradors (5) and BullDog
> (1)...especially for the dogs drinking water.
####Shelf life from both the silverpuppy and the silvergen should be
virtually forever.
I [silverpuppy dude] have however had a very few batches go violet in a
month or so. I believe this to be the result of me spitting into the
[clear glass] bottle while 'chugging' directly from it. The other half of
the same batch did not turn colors.
ken
Hi Becky,
Thanks for the email. I have not used either model, but from what I
can glean from their web sites, I'd go with the silverpuppy.
Here's why:
SilverPuppy
-----------
http://www.silverpuppy.com/current%20controlled%20CS%20generator.html
"2] Uses 7" looped electrodes in a configuration that presents no
edges to the water for excellent edge discharge characteristics
and greater surface area. [Electrodes are twice the length as the
ones for the old "Standard Series 1" generator, 12 gauge .999+
pure silver] Surface area of 12 gauge wire is exactly the same as
one side of a 1/4 " flat ribbon of the same length. Total surface
area for 7" = 3.2 sq " submerged with no edges to erode
prematurely."
"Wire is stronger, easier to handle, mount and swap from side to
side for even wear. 1/4" x .13" flat silver is extremly flimsy ,
hard to keep flat and parallel, and most of the ion discharge is
from the side facing the other electrode. Ion Discharge from 6
edges and 4 corners makes a flat electrode erode into a "V"
shape."
"3] Makes Colloidal Silver faster and better than the old non
stirred "Standard" model."
Discard the hype about faster and better. Everyone makes that claim.
###It's an accurate statement comparing the new model to the old...not to
anyone elses generators.
I don't know how fast or good anyone elses generators are. [I can surmise
and have tried some others and can predict some of the 'bad' design
elements though. [some I tried are REALLY bad. Most will do a fair job
with attention, care and some instrumentation..and quite a bit of knowledge.]
I try not to engage in hype..but it's hard to do that and still engage in
promotion sometimes.
ken
I agree that 12 ga wire is stronger, easier to clean, and easier to
handle. It makes no difference in swapping from side to side to
equalize wear as they claim.
### The reason to swap electrodes [between batches] for even wear is due
to the fact that silver is donated only by one electrode and you'll get
longer life from the electrodes if one of them doesn't go away faster than
the other. Polarity switching would do the same thing with a lot more
circuitry.
ken
The 3.2 square inches is a generous amount of wetted area. Just to
check their calculation, if the electrodes are 7 inches long, the
total length of wire is 14 inches. 12 ga wire is 0.25 square inch
per inch, so 14 inches of wire has an area of 3.5 square inches, not
counting the bend at the bottom.
So, their calculation is reasonable and probably correct.
## 7" is the total length...about 6.5" whetted. The current controls
kick in at .94 to 1 ma. You can add that to your current density
calculations. I think Trem uses about the same current.
The old models with 3 3/8" electrodes ran at .7 ma. You could easily
see the edge discharge phenomenon at the one circular edge.
I don't have any of Trems [silvergen] generators but by all accounts,
they are very good.
We have decided that we are not in competition, we just have slightly
different philosophies. [yes, we do talk]
I lean towards idiot proof operation and personal use.
Some of Trems gens have lots of bells and whistles that an experimentor
might find useful.
Ken [silverpuppy]
Also, this unit comes with a thermal stirrer which some say helps
produce better quality. I have not been able to confirm this with my
own tests, but it might be a useful feature to have.
### Thermal stirring does work quite well on smaller batches. Stirring of
any kind enhances the performance any generator. Batches over a quart
size ,limitations are apparent but some attention paid takes up most of the
slack.
The main advantage is simplicity and no moving parts to corrode or wear
out..and it won't stir too fast which produces other problems. Getting the
stir rate just right with mechanical stir systems with variable speed have
been a problem in the past as it's hard to qualify the right speed in the
instructions without having a tachometer. Peoples opinions of what's right
when environmental elements and their observations of results vary.
Like..how fast is fast..how slow is slow? It worked really well if you
have the knack...got a knack?
Trem at silvergen may have overcome that..I dunno. His stirrer design is
different from the one I 'used' to use and I don't know much about it.
I finally just gave up on mechanical stirring as 'too complicated' for
the average person.
I believe that Trem went with a small water pump in his large batch
generator. That's a great idea! That oughta do the job quite well without
the problems. [I still prefer the 12 gauge wire electrodes though..I'd use
10 gauge if I could find a good supply]
Ken
Finally, it comes completely assembled and ready for use.
Silvergen
---------
I can't find any Silvergen model at $99. If you mean the SG5A, it
seems to be $119, which is $20 higher than the SilverPuppy.
http://www.silvergen.com/General/technica.htm
"Our electrodes are .25 inches wide and .013 inches thick. If they
are submersed 4 inches, the total surface area will be 4.21 square
inches. This is 2.5 times the wetted surface area of 14 gauge
wires. Therefore the current density of 14 gauge wires will be 2.5
times higher than the electrodes we use. What this means is, the
amount of silver released using our electrodes will be so spread
out over the surface of the electrodes, it will be releasing at a
slower pace. If the silver is released more slowly, the particles
are smaller. They will also be more uniform in size because of the
constant current regulator and stirring. The result is a more
uniform, small particle size colloid."
A 0.013 flat ribbon will be difficult to keep straight. This means
it will be difficult to keep a uniform electrode spacing from top to
bottom.
While a small variation probably doesn't matter, you will be
constantly fussing with it and wondering if it is affecting the
results. It is not worth the hassle.
I'd go with 12 ga. wire. It is much stronger and will eliminate this
area of concern.
They claim an area of 4.21 square inches. I don't see where they get
the extra 0.21 square inches, unless they are counting the edge
effect. This is actually a bad thing, since it increases the current
density and leads to larger particles. Round wire has uniform
current density.
The area calculation is wrong. 4 inches of 0.25" wide material has
an area of 1 square inch. I'm not sure they can assume the other
side has equal current distribution, but if it does, the total is
only 2 square inches.
If they are adding the anode and cathode together to arrive at a
total, they are deceiving you. The current density is calculated
using either electrode, not both.
Their information is wrong and very deceiving.
http://www.silvergen.com/
"SG5A and SG5B are the original models we brought to the market
years ago. They use the same constant current internal regulator
as the SG6 but do not have auto shut-off, a stirring motor or
variable PPM control. They use external electrodes. This colloid
generator comes with a four page instruction sheet, 3 foot long
electrode lead, 2 - 1/4" wide, 5" long .999 pure silver electrodes
and operates off standard 120 volt wall current. The hi intensity
light emitting diode (LED) indicator serves triple purpose. It
indicates power ON/OFF when the unit is first turned on. When the
cable is inserted into the jack and the electrodes are placed in
the water it then acts as a water quality indicator. If the light
comes on when the electrodes are first inserted into the water,
the water is not good. It has minerals in it which will hinder the
process. With "good" water, once the process has started, the LED
then acts as a current flow indicator."
The water quality indicator shuts the system off if it thinks the
water is no good.
This prevents you from seeding a new batch with some from a previous
run. So you cannot speed the process if your distilled water is very
good quality.
"SG5A inside view. This generator uses the same constant current
regulator as the SG6 but does not have automatic shutoff, variable
PPM control or the stirring motor. You run the unit for a given
time to produce the strength in PPM you desire. It can make CS up
to 15 PPM with no color. Higher concentrations can produce a
yellow color CS because of agglomeration. This unit is identical
to the SG5B but can not work with external DC voltages from 9 to
40 volts as the SG5B can."
Although the cheaper model has no stirring motor, I think their
approach to mount the unit on top of the water container is a bit
risky. I'd be concerned about it tipping over and spilling water all
over the place. You do not need water spills where electricity is
involved. Also, the unit may fall to the floor and be damaged.
The overall design of the Silvergen is not as carefully thought out
as the SilverPuppy. The price is $20 higher. You have to assemble
the unit. The flat strips will be impossible to keep straight. Their
calculations on electrode surface area are wrong and deceiving.
I'd go with the SilverPuppy.
But I'd be concerned about supplying 5 Labradors, a BullDog, plus
your family from a single unit.
If the dogs are not sick, perhaps they don't need any. Your family
is most important, but you didn't say how many people. If you have a
large family and everyone gets the flu at the same time, your little
generator will be working constantly. I'd try to keep a reserve for
situations like this.
Properly prepared cs has no reason to degrade. If it turns yellow
and plates out, it was prepared with too high a current. You can
solve this by running at a lower current, but it will take longer.
Hope this helps!
Best Regards,
Mike Monett
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