I never cease to marvel at your knowledge ode, somewhere down about 6 lines,
and from there on i was lost. I know now why I always come to you when i
have a question. The rest of the time i lurk and try to learn.
I think its 5 years now that i bought my puppy from you, and its still going
strong, I just read your directions and did what they said exactly. I was
going to upgrade to the one that makes more cs at a time, but decided not to
tamper with what ain't broke. Im glad you are here .
Bye the way mike, i am one of them women caretakers, or atleast i was till
the need for cs became something i need too. now we both use it. I was
kinda stupid = i could see how much it was helping my husband and was stupid
to realize i should be taking it too. But not any more. Again thank all of
you for all the help i have received, not many of us remember to thank you
all. Jen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ode Coyote" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: CS>How do Ode and others get CS started with no salt?
To speed it all up;
Heat the water up to pretty hot.
This increases conductivity at around 3 uS per 10 degrees F.
Now, running a generator in water that's over around 120 Deg just about
guarantees particle collisions from excessive Brownian Motion, but there's
a neat side effect when running small batches of around 8 oz.
At first when the water is really hot, there aren't that many particles
TO colloide.
As the water cools, torrid thermodynamic stirring currents are induced as
the outside surface cools faster than the inside.
The upside is that conductivity is highest when you need it to be high to
get things going.
The downside is that the water is coolest as compared to environmental
temperatures and stirring the least when you need it the most, but in
small batches the effect lasts long enough to make a positive difference.
It doesn't take much.
Among other things [concerning disrupting the Nearnst Diffusion layers],
any stirring at all disrupts the formation of a highly conductive "ion
track" directly between the electrodes that promotes excessive and
premature runaway and also prevents deposit growths on the container that
happen if those ion tracks contact the vessel.
Stirring too fast makes particles get stuck in the surface tension of
Hydrogen bubbles resulting in the growth of a big grey beard that faces
the direction of the water currents or hides in high speed eddies behind
flat electrode edges. [Structurally stabilized, semi conductive
Silver/hydrogen bubble clusters, aka the "grey fuzzies" or "fluffies", if
they fall off..no huge big deal, but not pretty.] If they pop while
pulling an encrusted electrode out of the water, that silver transfers to
the surface tension of the water making a really nice silver slick. On the
extreme end, the semi-conductive nature can also mess up auto off
calibration and make an automatic generator run forever and get really
messy. It's a time related problem, so the bigger the batch, the longer it
runs and the worse it gets. ]
Ideally, the amount of current used on the electrodes per square inch
shouldn't exceed 1 or 2 millimaps.
Some people who have a generator that doesn't control the current will
stop at 20 milliamps and I guess they get away with it, especially if they
constantly stir the water, but I don't like what starts happening at 3
and 4 milliamps per square inch.
I confess that my experience with using uncontrolled current stopped at
about 5 batches, a few jars full of brown sludge and a melted down
transformer with a "Whelp, that ain't it".
Being a former electro-plater and knowing that current and finish where
quite related in that similar field, that's where I headed.
The only way to make it go fast and still do it consistently right is to
use a LOT of electrode area.
Trems SG7 Pro does that @ $649.00 plus shipping. That's a $$$LOT$$$ of
silver on that electrode array and a lot of time to make that thing. Uses
polarity swapping output [prevents grey fuzzies] and water pump for
stirring [well directed flow].
www.silvergen.com
Otherwise, you just have to wait for as many hours as it takes and use
some sort of instrumentation to tell where you are. But when I do that, I
forget to check by regularly, so, an automatic off circuit that
electronically monitors the water became a necessity.
Using a timer alone simply doesn't and can't work because the time it
takes to get to a given place can vary by several hours with only a small
deviation in water quality and temperature. Running "Cruise Control" is
bad enough as that still has an acceleration phase and most of the time
variation is at the beginning, now try and time a constantly accelerating
missile with an unknown thrust and no fuel or speed limits along with the
same degree of variation at the beginning. Got a ballistics computer?
Any small [affordable] generator running in the ideal current range will
take around 5 to 10 hours to make a quart of CS. Scaling up for speed
spells big bucks and big machines, but time used elsewhere [not watching]
is cheap. Not very many people need more than a quart a day and setting up
an automatic batch only takes around 30 seconds.
When you get tired of straining your eyeballs, you'll wind up here.
The top 4 decent generator "systems" I've seen, priced so as not to pick
your pockets in no particular order are:
The SG6 www.silvergen.com [I don't care for screw on the jar generators
but that's a minor peeve. Flat rectangular electrodes don't have the best
discharge characteristics and can be a touch hard to handle and mount.
This one does have a constant stir provision which I think is too fast and
a variable auto off that apparently maxes out at 15 uS on the ones I've
seen, with no way to exceed that. DC output. $199+ sh Most people get
along with the SG6 just fine. Very popular. ]
The Colloid Master 777 http://www.wishgranted.com/ [ I've never seen one,
most people seem to like it. No stirring provision and a claim that the
polarity swapping output does that job. Well, kinda sorta. Variable PPM
control, I don't know the actual max and don't think it can be exceeded.
Flat electrodes and operator determined electrode spacing that will make
calibration a matter for the operator to figure out. Oh!..move the
electrodes further apart to get more PPMs at the auto off setting? $99 +
sh ]
Newcomer? www.colloidaltech.com [ Very nice micro-processor run unit.
One rock solid auto off setting at 10 PPM [around 15 uS?] in the provided
quart jar but with an LED array that tells you when to stop if you want
less PPM. Fred tells me that it can be reset after the auto off triggers
to double that and I suppose the array can be used to determine PPM from
10 to 20 as well. Double the normal amount of electrode and runs faster
than most making a quart in about 5 hours. Polarity swap output. $139.96
+ sh $59.95 for 30 RPM optional magnetically coupled "Bottom up"
stirrer or get both for $179.95 on "special"
..I would get the stirrer, it makes a big difference. "Peaves"? Screw on
the jar, only one batch size and fixed electrodes. They are, however
optimized for best discharge characteristics. Fred and I traded systems
a while back, so I have one of his and he has one of mine. Overall, an
impressive system but stirred too fast for me. After some discussion and
experimentation, that was changed to the present 30 RPM speed. I've also
found that bottom up stirring works much better than top down stirring
regardless of batch size and no motor corrosion issues. Impression?
Impressed. ]
Edge discharge and attraction is the electro-platers nightmare. Too much
current and the edges and corners "burn", not enough and the inside
corners and holes don't get plated. Enter the art of bleed wires to get a
good finish on odd shapes. It's the same thing in reverse for emitting
ions, but there, you can control the shapes.
Finally, the Puppy. www.silverpuppy.com [ One auto off setting at 16 uS
10-12 PPM with a manual bypass switch so you can go as high as you like or
use "bad" water in a pinch. Easy handling of discharge optimized
electrodes, can be used to make Colloidal Copper. A choice of bottom up
stir systems included in a selection of "kits". Generator part can be run
on a vast selection of batteries, solar panel or virtually any transformer
with input AC or DC. An "Off grid" kit ..made special for the Australian
Outback, sold as the SilverWell in Australia http://www.silverwell.com.au/
..is offered. Transformer included. A choice of polarity swapping or
traditional DC output with dual color LED indicating polarity changes.
Sits 'in /on' a jar, almost any jar..no screwing. Very compact durable
package and not "clunky/top heavy". $125 -$155 free shipping.
Impression? Too prejudiced to state one.]
Since any of these generators don't know anything about water that's not
between the electrodes, batch size is limited only by time and time
related electrode deposits buildup problems that a polarity swapping
output pretty much eliminates.
The very worst value:
http://www.flowerpowergenerator.com/mainstore.html
A new Mark Metcalf pocket cleaner. This guy has been around for
for-ever....$99 for nuthin. [Down from $150 back in the 80s ]
Oh look! a $14 TDS tester for only 40 bucks!
Make your very own "Silver Chloride" !!
Interesting tidbit: First of all, "purely ionic silver products" do not
exist. (Ionic silver is another name for silver chloride.)
..but not the only name. Silver Nitrate? Silver Acetate? Silver
Citrate?
Oh, I suppose that silver hydroxide and silver oxide isn't ionic. Well,
OK..it's not "pure", they have oxygen and/or hydrogen in there. [Not sure
what a "Hydrosol" is.] Anything that's "dissolved" is ionic and nothing
that is suspended is. [Silver hydroxide doesn't dissolve very well at all,
but it's also not very stable and breaks down easily ]
Another wonderful value:
http://educate-yourself.org/cs/csgendesc.shtml
$110- $150
How much does a resistor or grain of wheat light bulb cost? Oh, around
$70. [Certainly not .7 or even 70 cents ]
What does it really do? Keeps the generator from burning up.
Only $40 for a wall transformer and a spot to plug it into.
You can limit current with a resistor, but limiting it enough to make a
difference also drops the voltage down to..really really really slow. The
usual limit is 20 to 40 milliamps, completely useless for making CS, but
great to prevent fires.
Using a potentiometer [variable resistor] and an ammeter is a valid way
to manually control current. That ain't that.
You want that sort of generator without so much total BS and jiffy
cleaned pockets? [actually a little better because electrode mounting is
addressed and that's very important for repeatable results]
Don't know why James is saying pure silver is light sensitive. I
thought he knew better.
http://www.sunstoneherbals.com/
$34.95
That one would cost you about $20-$25 to build, batteries included. Heck,
I'd pay someone $15 or $20 to do that for me.
Fair price.
Ode
At 05:43 PM 8/29/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Hello, Ode Coyote and friends,
In the middle of my beginner´s ignorance, I would like to have some help
in relation to getting a batch of CS started in my provisional device
which has a constant output of 28 volts of DC and no current flux control,
and a capacity of 300 ml (around 10 oz) to be used around 15 min. per
batch.
I am planning to buy a one or two gallon capacity good quality generator
in about one or two months. In the meantime I am using this one to learn
what not to do. I hope to get a decent product that I can use for the
benefit of my family and I until I get the new device.
In the beginning, following the instructions, I was adding 1 drop of
saturated marine salt solution (and producing a nice ammount of silver
chloride and some extras). I reduced that to one half, and the process got
slower but still worked. Next I used 75 ml (around 2.5 oz) of a previous
batch and 225 ml (about 7.5 oz) of distilled water, but the process go too
slow and started getting a bit of brownish hue in the batch. Next I tried
a bit of honey as a starter, and it did not work.
Any suggestions?
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--
The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver.
Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org
To post, address your message to: [email protected]
Address Off-Topic messages to: [email protected]
The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down...
List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/430 - Release Date: 8/28/2006
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/433 - Release Date: 8/30/2006
