Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 166, Issue 12

Johnny Billquist Sun, 05 Nov 2017 14:49:42 -0800

Ah.

That sound like a simh problem. The tape file itself have one of a fewdifferent formats, none of them even keep any CRC (at least none of theones I can think of right now).The backing file storage just have the tape records. And obviously,since the same backing file storage is used on both emulated tapedrives, there is obviously nothing wrong with the file.

Any CRC indication is purely made up in simh. And that is where you getthe error indication. So I guess someone needs to dig into the emulationof the Massbus tape drives.

And to directly answer your question - no I didn't know of anydifference, and was not aware of this problem. Maybe someone is, but Ihaven't seen/heard anything, and noone have said anything here so fareither.


  Johnny

On 2017-11-05 20:19, Peter Allan wrote:

Quite right Johnny. I obviously was not clear about the problem.

Essentially, when trying to read a tape file using a simulated TE16 tapedrive (on a simulated VAX 780 running VMS 3.0), I get CRC errors, yetwhen I try to read the same tape file with a simulated TS11 tape drive,it works perfectly. My question is - is there any explanation for thisdifferent behaviour?


Peter Allan

On 5 November 2017 at 17:00, <simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com<mailto:simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com>> wrote:


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    Today's Topics:

        1. Re:  VMS 1.5 installable? (Johnny Billquist)


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Message: 1
    Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 12:55:16 +0100
    From: Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se>>
    To: simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com>
    Subject: Re: [Simh] VMS 1.5 installable?
    Message-ID: <6a250afb-9965-c07a-284b-3d25d8bfb...@softjar.se
    <mailto:6a250afb-9965-c07a-284b-3d25d8bfb...@softjar.se>>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

    Well, obviously there are differences. The TE16 is a Massbus tape drive.
    The TS11 is a Unibus thing. Totally different. Both in how they connect,
    how the programming model is, the exact layout of registers, and of
    course then, through which bus interface you program them.

    In essence, they have nothing in common, apart from that they both use
    the same physical tape medium in real life.

        Johnny

    On 2017-11-05 11:39, Peter Allan wrote:
     > Thanks to Wilm, I now have VMS 1.5 up and running. This is new
    territory
     > for me since my first exposure to VAXen was in late 1982 when the
     > version was something like 3.0, or just possibly the last version of
     > 2.x. (I didn't pay attention to such things back then. If I could
    write
     > Fortran programs, I was happy.)
     >
     > However, the fact that I could complete the installation of VMS
    3.0 by
     > using a simulated TS11 tape drive when it failed with a TE16
    drive has
     > got me wondering if there is a bug in simh. Surely on a real
    system you
     > could use a real TS11 or TE16 drive? Obviously there is no
    density on a
     > simulated tape file, but is there any other difference between
    the two
     > simulated tape drives that explains what is going on?
     >
     > Cheers
     >
     > Peter Allan
     >
     >
     > On 25 October 2017 at 14:08, Peter Allan <petermal...@gmail.com
    <mailto:petermal...@gmail.com>
     > <mailto:petermal...@gmail.com <mailto:petermal...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
     >
     >     Thanks Wilm, I will try that out. I doubt I would have thought of
     >     using a TS11 rather than a TE16 without your advice.
     >
     >     Peter
     >
     >     On 25 October 2017 at 12:39, Wilm Boerhout
    <wboerh...@gmail.com <mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com>
     >     <mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com <mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
     >
     >         Your approach is correct, I have regularly used it over
    the past
     >         weeks to bring up VMS 1.0.
     >
     >         I also saw these CRC errors on restore sometimes. There
    are two
     >         ways around this:
     >
     >         1. Mount the 3.0 tape on a generic (newer) VAX/VMS
    system, use
     >             $MOUNT/OVER=ID and copy the LIBRARY and OPTIONAL
    savesets to a
     >             (RP06-sized) disk in the [0,0] directory. In a later
    step, $
     >         mount
     >             /foreign this disk, and point the installer to this
    disk as
     >         the source.
     >         2. On your 3.0 system just booted with just the REQUIRED
     >         saveset, use a
     >             TS11 and not a TE16 tape unit in the simh config.
    Somehow this
     >             worked. Also, when you use a TE16, use an explicit
    $MOU/FOR
     >             /DEN=800. I forget in which version, but this also worked
     >         sometimes.
     >
     >         HTH
     >
     >         /Wilm
     >
     >
     >         Peter Allan schreef op 25-10-2017 om 13:30:
     >
     >             Encouraged by all of the posting about running VMS
    1.5 on an
     >             emulated VAX 780 with simh, I have tried to do the same.
     >             However, I am having a problem.
     >
     >             I don't have an existing VMS 3.x system running (4.6
    is my
     >             earliest), so I tried to do a VMS 3.0 installation
    using the
     >             tape from uni-stuttgart which I had downloaded some
    time ago.
     >
     >             I booted a VMS 4.6 system on an emulated 780 and did an
     >             image restore using BACKUP of the REQUIRED saveset on the
     >             VMS 3.0 installation tape to an RP06. So far, so
    good. Then
     >             I booted the newly created RP06 disk, which continued the
     >             installation process by attempting to restore the LIBRARY
     >             saveset on the VMS 3.0 tape. However, this crashed
    with too
     >             many CRC errors.
     >
     >             This is where I am stuck. I could download the tape from
     >             uni-stuttgart again, but is there any reason to expect a
     >             better result by doing this? Can someone who has got
    this to
     >             work advise me what to try next please. I have downloaded
     >             the files that Christian posted, but while that has
     >             standalone backup on a disk image, I need DSC to read the
     >             VMS 1.5 tape (don't I?) which is the only reason that
    I was
     >             trying to get VMS 3.0 working in the first place.
     >
     >             Cheers
     >
     >             Peter Allan
     >
     >             On 20 October 2017 at 09:43, Wilm Boerhout
     >             <wboerh...@gmail.com <mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com>
    <mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com <mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com>>
     >             <mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com
    <mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com> <mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com
    <mailto:wboerh...@gmail.com>>>>
     >             wrote:
     >
     >                  Matt Burke schreef op 17-10-2017 om 23:17:
     >
     >                      You may also want to try VAX/VMS 1.0 (or as
    close
     >             as you can
     >                      get to it):
     >
     >
     > http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip
    <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip>
     >             <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip
    <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip>>
     >                      <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip
    <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip>
     >             <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip
    <http://www.9track.net/vms/BB-D782A-BE.zip>>>
     >
     >                      This is not taken from an original tape. It's
     >             something I
     >                      reconstructed
     >                      from a disk containing early VAX/VMS source and
     >             binaries. The
     >                      dates
     >                      indicate that this is earlier than VAX/VMS 1.5.
     >                      Hopefully someone can find an original at
    some point.
     >
     >                      Matt
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