Thanks for any advice.
Kurt
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 3:05 AM, <simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com
<mailto:simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com>> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: NetBSD 5.1 on MicoVAX 3900 boot error (Bob Supnik)
2. Re: DEC VT emulators on MAME (Johnny Billquist)
3. Re: NetBSD 5.1 on MicoVAX 3900 boot error (Mark Abene)
4. Re: NetBSD 5.1 on MicoVAX 3900 boot error (Mark Pizzolato)
5. Re: DEC VT emulators on MAME (Kevin Handy)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 16:08:34 -0400
From: Bob Supnik <b...@supnik.org <mailto:b...@supnik.org>>
To: simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [Simh] NetBSD 5.1 on MicoVAX 3900 boot error
Message-ID: <4ee0f9dc-071c-9ea9-fe74-48134c5e9...@supnik.org
<mailto:4ee0f9dc-071c-9ea9-fe74-48134c5e9...@supnik.org>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
You can get a pre-built Windows 32b 3.9 executable without Ethernet (and
therefore, without needing WinPCap) here:
http://simh.trailing-edge.com/sources/simhv39-0-exe.zip
<http://simh.trailing-edge.com/sources/simhv39-0-exe.zip>. It should run
fine under W10. See if it will boot NetBSD 5.1.
/Bob Supnik
On 4/18/2017 3:53 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com
<mailto:simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> You shouldn't need WinPCAP merely to test if the CD image is
bootable.
> The point of the boot test exercise is to help determine if the
problem is
> in NetBSD or due to recent changes to simh. If changes to simh
are at
> fault, I'll track it down and fix the problem.
>
>> I specifically want to run a 5.x version of NetBSD. I'm pretty
sure it did
>> run on SIMH 3.8-1 on Windows 7 before the upgrade. I need to
downgrade a
>> laptop I have to Win7 in the future and may try that. Until then
I'll play
>> with OpenBSD which doesn't seem to have any problems with SIMH
4.0 beta.
> The boot test I'm suggesting will be far less work than setting
up another
> system.
>
> Let me know.
>
> - Mark
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:39:08 +0200
From: Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se>>
To: simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [Simh] DEC VT emulators on MAME
Message-ID: <2e3a017d-0166-df35-3b92-11ab3a691...@softjar.se
<mailto:2e3a017d-0166-df35-3b92-11ab3a691...@softjar.se>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Ok, looked at the schematics now.
On 2017-04-18 21:53, Timothe Litt wrote:
>
>
>> Since they're windowless, they are not EPROM (remember what the E
>> stands for), but plain ROMs.
> Nope. I meant exactly what I wrote.
[...]
Good point about it being the same chip. I hadn't considered that
possibility. I know that for some 27-series proms, there were certainly
both mask programmable as well as EPROM versions, where the mask
programmable was more persistent safe. EPROMs have a risk of loosing
their content eventually, even if not exposed to UV light.
> As for which signal you use for what - it doesn't matter. OE
puts the
> chip into a low power state just as effectively as CS - assuming that
> the part isn't in programming or ID mode. Since the part is never
> written (in the terminal), this effectively gives you 2 CS pins
> (effectively ANDed), and thus decoding requires at most an inverter.
Not entirely true.
OE should timing wise be done after CS and addresses have been stable
for a certain time. And power consumption of the chip is related to the
control of CS, and is not related to OE.
While power consumption might not be a problem, and the timing can be
solve, it does mean that driving CS and OE cannot be done identically.
If you use OE as a CS, you should make make sure the address is stable
some time before you activate OE, and if you use CS, you need to still
drive OE at a point later in time, and not just tie them together or
something.
> The 27C256 is a 32K x 8 part; it has no A15 (but the cartridge
socket does.)
Yes, that was obvious.
> Keven pointed out that the odd chip is probably the character
generator
> ROM - thus the separate address and data bus - and it doesn't
need a CS
> or OE. It's always reading something.
>
> As I've written before, rather than guessing, a few minutes with an
> ohmmeter can sort all this out.
>
> I'm leaving that - and further exploration - as an exercise to
the reader.
I seriously doubt it's a character generator ROM in the normal sense of
the word. The VT340 do not generate character output in hardware.
It's a graphic terminal, which stores the text in the the bitmap, as far
as I remember (I seem to remember being able to go into graphics mode
and affect text already written). Also, you have soft definable
characters, so the CPU need to have access to the same memory the
character generator would use anyway, and it has to contain some RAM,
minimum. So it needs to be in the normal memory space of the CPU.
But there is indeed two address and databuses, so I think it's fair to
say the two select lines are only used for a subset of the PROMs.
There might be data in one ROM that is copied into RAM at startup.
Character definition tables, for example, I could imagine.
Anyway, most things can be worked out my doing the measurements you
suggest, yes.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se> ||
Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:07:06 -0700
From: Mark Abene <phi...@phiber.com <mailto:phi...@phiber.com>>
To: Bob Supnik <b...@supnik.org <mailto:b...@supnik.org>>
Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [Simh] NetBSD 5.1 on MicoVAX 3900 boot error
Message-ID:
<capce1iyzrke19nrctb-k-zarhyi0usyazy0frfbvcsqwmrw...@mail.gmail.com
<mailto:capce1iyzrke19nrctb-k-zarhyi0usyazy0frfbvcsqwmrw...@mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Should one want winpcap in Windows 10, all one needs is:
http://www.win10pcap.org/
-Mark
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Bob Supnik <b...@supnik.org
<mailto:b...@supnik.org>> wrote:
> You can get a pre-built Windows 32b 3.9 executable without
Ethernet (and
> therefore, without needing WinPCap) here:
http://simh.trailing-edge.com/
> sources/simhv39-0-exe.zip. It should run fine under W10. See if
it will
> boot NetBSD 5.1.
>
> /Bob Supnik
>
>
> On 4/18/2017 3:53 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com
<mailto:simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>
>> You shouldn't need WinPCAP merely to test if the CD image is
bootable.
>> The point of the boot test exercise is to help determine if the
problem is
>> in NetBSD or due to recent changes to simh. If changes to simh
are at
>> fault, I'll track it down and fix the problem.
>>
>> I specifically want to run a 5.x version of NetBSD. I'm pretty
sure it did
>>> run on SIMH 3.8-1 on Windows 7 before the upgrade. I need to
downgrade a
>>> laptop I have to Win7 in the future and may try that. Until
then I'll
>>> play
>>> with OpenBSD which doesn't seem to have any problems with SIMH
4.0 beta.
>>>
>> The boot test I'm suggesting will be far less work than setting
up another
>> system.
>>
>> Let me know.
>>
>> - Mark
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Simh mailing list
> Simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com>
> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
<http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:39:48 -0700
From: Mark Pizzolato <m...@infocomm.com <mailto:m...@infocomm.com>>
To: Mark Abene <phi...@phiber.com <mailto:phi...@phiber.com>>, Bob
Supnik <b...@supnik.org <mailto:b...@supnik.org>>
Cc: "simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com>"
<simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com>>
Subject: Re: [Simh] NetBSD 5.1 on MicoVAX 3900 boot error
Message-ID:
<03006e3fc39b5a48ab9dbccc101090a82e8242e...@redroof2.alohasunset.com
<mailto:03006e3fc39b5a48ab9dbccc101090a82e8242e...@redroof2.alohasunset.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Actually, the latest simh ‘supported’ WinPcap is npcap.
Npcap is part of the nmap project and directly shares the latest
libpcap code.
Npcap has a BSD license like the original WinPcap did. Win10pcap is
a GPL package and is untested and unsupported for use with simh
Ethernet devices.
Npcap is available from: https://github.com/nmap/npcap/releases
<https://github.com/nmap/npcap/releases>
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com
<mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com>] On Behalf Of Mark Abene
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 3:07 PM
To: Bob Supnik <b...@supnik.org <mailto:b...@supnik.org>>
Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: [Simh] NetBSD 5.1 on MicoVAX 3900 boot error
Should one want winpcap in Windows 10, all one needs is:
http://www.win10pcap.org/
-Mark
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Bob Supnik <b...@supnik.org
<mailto:b...@supnik.org><mailto:b...@supnik.org
<mailto:b...@supnik.org>>> wrote:
You can get a pre-built Windows 32b 3.9 executable without Ethernet
(and therefore, without needing WinPCap) here:
http://simh.trailing-edge.com/sources/simhv39-0-exe.zip
<http://simh.trailing-edge.com/sources/simhv39-0-exe.zip>. It should
run fine under W10. See if it will boot NetBSD 5.1.
/Bob Supnik
On 4/18/2017 3:53 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com
<mailto:simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com><mailto:simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com
<mailto:simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com>> wrote:
You shouldn't need WinPCAP merely to test if the CD image is bootable.
The point of the boot test exercise is to help determine if the
problem is
in NetBSD or due to recent changes to simh. If changes to simh are at
fault, I'll track it down and fix the problem.
I specifically want to run a 5.x version of NetBSD. I'm pretty sure
it did
run on SIMH 3.8-1 on Windows 7 before the upgrade. I need to downgrade a
laptop I have to Win7 in the future and may try that. Until then
I'll play
with OpenBSD which doesn't seem to have any problems with SIMH 4.0 beta.
The boot test I'm suggesting will be far less work than setting up
another
system.
Let me know.
- Mark
_______________________________________________
Simh mailing list
Simh@trailing-edge.com
<mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com><mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com
<mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com>>
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
<http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh>
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 01:05:20 -0600
From: Kevin Handy <khandy2...@gmail.com <mailto:khandy2...@gmail.com>>
To: Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se>>
Cc: "simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com>"
<simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com>>
Subject: Re: [Simh] DEC VT emulators on MAME
Message-ID:
<CANk4W2OuRsR=ulh_856ysmrg4hjurjfukn6tq_+hgwsaegh...@mail.gmail.com
<mailto:ulh_856ysmrg4hjurjfukn6tq_%2bhgwsaegh...@mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Looking at the schematic of the terminal from
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/terminal/vt340/K-TC-VT340_Schematic_Feb87.pdf
<http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/terminal/vt340/K-TC-VT340_Schematic_Feb87.pdf>,
it appears that there are two 8031 processors. One (E57) uses the
'P1 AA'
bus and has the 51x8 nvrom, the other (E24) uses the 'P2 BA' bus.
64Kx8 ram seems to be shared between them.
1st guess, E57 does most of the heavy work (serial, uart, keyboard,
etc),
and the other E24 handles the display.
Also, for chip select,there is a 'P1 AA15 H' and a'P1 AA15 L' on the
connector which should help with the chip selection logic. (ie. the
inverter is inside the terminal, not on the card).
On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se
<mailto:b...@softjar.se>> wrote:
> Ok, looked at the schematics now.
>
> On 2017-04-18 21:53, Timothe Litt wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Since they're windowless, they are not EPROM (remember what the E
>>> stands for), but plain ROMs.
>>>
>> Nope. I meant exactly what I wrote.
>>
>
> [...]
>
> Good point about it being the same chip. I hadn't considered that
> possibility. I know that for some 27-series proms, there were
certainly
> both mask programmable as well as EPROM versions, where the mask
> programmable was more persistent safe. EPROMs have a risk of
loosing their
> content eventually, even if not exposed to UV light.
>
> As for which signal you use for what - it doesn't matter. OE
puts the
>> chip into a low power state just as effectively as CS - assuming
that
>> the part isn't in programming or ID mode. Since the part is never
>> written (in the terminal), this effectively gives you 2 CS pins
>> (effectively ANDed), and thus decoding requires at most an inverter.
>>
>
> Not entirely true.
> OE should timing wise be done after CS and addresses have been
stable for
> a certain time. And power consumption of the chip is related to
the control
> of CS, and is not related to OE.
>
> While power consumption might not be a problem, and the timing can be
> solve, it does mean that driving CS and OE cannot be done
identically. If
> you use OE as a CS, you should make make sure the address is
stable some
> time before you activate OE, and if you use CS, you need to still
drive OE
> at a point later in time, and not just tie them together or
something.
>
> The 27C256 is a 32K x 8 part; it has no A15 (but the cartridge socket
>> does.)
>>
>
> Yes, that was obvious.
>
> Keven pointed out that the odd chip is probably the character
generator
>> ROM - thus the separate address and data bus - and it doesn't
need a CS
>> or OE. It's always reading something.
>>
>> As I've written before, rather than guessing, a few minutes with an
>> ohmmeter can sort all this out.
>>
>> I'm leaving that - and further exploration - as an exercise to
the reader.
>>
>
> I seriously doubt it's a character generator ROM in the normal
sense of
> the word. The VT340 do not generate character output in hardware.
> It's a graphic terminal, which stores the text in the the bitmap,
as far
> as I remember (I seem to remember being able to go into graphics
mode and
> affect text already written). Also, you have soft definable
characters, so
> the CPU need to have access to the same memory the character
generator
> would use anyway, and it has to contain some RAM, minimum. So it
needs to
> be in the normal memory space of the CPU.
>
> But there is indeed two address and databuses, so I think it's
fair to say
> the two select lines are only used for a subset of the PROMs.
>
> There might be data in one ROM that is copied into RAM at startup.
> Character definition tables, for example, I could imagine.
>
> Anyway, most things can be worked out my doing the measurements you
> suggest, yes.
>
>
> Johnny
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se> ||
Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
> _______________________________________________
> Simh mailing list
> Simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com>
> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
<http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh>
>
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------------------------------
End of Simh Digest, Vol 159, Issue 26
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