On 13-Feb-20 20:57, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2020-02-14 01:35, Timothe Litt wrote: >> On 13-Feb-20 19:21, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> On 2020-02-13 17:42, Clem Cole wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole <cl...@ccc.com >>>> <mailto:cl...@ccc.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it >>>> might have been a KA10. I don't think I ever saw one on a >>>> PDP-8/11 >>>> or Vaxen. >>>> >>>> The more I think about it, there must have been one or two in the >>>> mill or the machine room in MRO, but I just can not picture them. >>> >>> As far as I know, there was no punch for the PDP-8 or PDP-11. >>> However, there were readers. >>> >>> And the PDP-11 reader controller sat on the Unibus, so it would not >>> be hard to get it working on a VAX either. If that was officially >>> supported or not I don't know, though. >>> >>> There were a bunch of PDP-11 Unibus peripherals that was never >>> supported on a VAX. DECtape comes to mind, as well as RK05. >>> >>> Johnny >>> >> >> See my previous note. > > Came to yours later... > >> The punches you mention do exist, as do others (Not particularly >> common or popular): >> >> * PDP-11: CP11-UP Punch interface for Univac 1710 Card RDR/PUNCH > > Was that a CSS product perhaps? Even looking at the PDP-11 Peripherals > handbook from 1976 don't mention it. There is only CM11, CR11 and > CD11. All three are card reader only.
Special Systems, California. Responsible design engineer: Bob Edwards Don't read anything into "Special Systems" - CSS just means "low volume" - CSS would sell to anyone, though if a customer's request seemed unique, the first (sometimes only) customer would pretty much pay the NRE. "Low volume" is relative - in the late 80s, line printers were CSS products. Can't say much about the CP11's volume - I only saw one. I expect it was low. > > Haven't manage to find anything on bitsavers yet, but there are a > bunch of places to search, so I might just have missed it. > >> Card readers were sold and supported on all systems thru VAX. > > Thanks for clarifying that for me. I wasn't at all sure about the VAX. > >> Someone wrote a DECtape driver for VAX - I think Stan R., though it >> wasn't supported. DECtape controllers are odd devices - the TD10 is >> reasonably smart, but the others put realtime constraints on the >> drivers that could be hard to meet. Anyhow, by the time the VAX came >> out, TU58 and Floppies were cheaper and denser media. > > I actually do remember seeing it. Fun thing. :-) > >> There was also an unsupported DECtape driver for TOPS-20. > > KLs with DECtape was always only Tops-10? Yup. TOPS-20 had no official support for any IO bus device - except the AN20 (ARPAnet/IMP interface). Except in that case, the DIA/DIB20 was difficult to get on the 20 - it was standard on the 10. However, several drivers for IOB devices existed. Including the card reader/punch. The issue was simply that the IOB had been superseded by MASSBUS (for DMA devices - disk, tape) - the DF10 channels were expensive in $ and in memory ports. For most unit record & Comm, cheaper and less overhead to hang on the PDP-11 front end. Unibus, and the drivers made the devices smarter (and cheaper). E.g. The 11 handled DMA, modem control, even broadcast messaging. And card images. IOB card readers interrupt the -10 for every column. Even with BLKI in the interrupt locations, this was annoying. A typical IOB controller would be several rows of modules, plus power and cooling. Just the IOB paddle cards used more backplane space than a Unibus SPC slot. DECtape, the TD10, is an IOB (but not DMA) device. Thus, no support. Customers who screamed loudly enough and were migrating from TOPS-10 could make it work- at the price of a DIB20 (a full cabinet) and a TOPS-20 source kit. When they heard the prices, most swallowed hard and moved their data to disk or 9-Track. The problem, of course, is that at the time there was no replacement "personal media" on the -20 -- the FE floppies (RX01) were not accessible to the OS, and there was no TU58 (even un-)support on TOPS20. Both university and engineering shops liked personal media - mostly to reduce demand for and clutter on expensive disk space. But TOPS-20 management knew better. > > Johnny >
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