On Mar 8, 2007, at 6:39 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

>
>
> Daniel Corbe wrote:
>> What are you trying to fix?  Are you not getting ring indicator  
>> tone back from one of your carriers?
>> In practice you shouldn't be generating any provisional responses  
>> except for 100 Trying.  In the voice world at least this is  
>> generally regarded as a bad idea.
>
> That is a good recommendation for a proxy. It is presumptive to  
> make such a statement for a B2BUA.
>
>> RFC3261 specifically makes no distinction between a proxy and a  
>> B2BUA other than this:
>
>
>> 6 Definitions
>> Back-to-Back User Agent: A back-to-back user agent (B2BUA) is a
>>          logical entity that receives a request and processes it as a
>>          user agent server (UAS).  In order to determine how the  
>> request
>>          should be answered, it acts as a user agent client (UAC) and
>>          generates requests.  Unlike a proxy server, it maintains  
>> dialog
>>          state and must participate in all requests sent on the  
>> dialogs
>>          it has established.  Since it is a concatenation of a UAC  
>> and
>>          UAS, no explicit definitions are needed for its behavior.
>> So "proxy" and "b2bua" are very ambiguous.  Based on that  
>> definition, one would be going out on a limb to say "A B2BUA can  
>> do more than a proxy can."
>
> You make it sound like 3261 considers them to be almost the same  
> thing!

It does, really.  Where does it say otherwise?

>
> Nothing could be further from the truth. 3261 makes very clear  
> distinctions between a Proxy and a UA. A B2BUA *is* a UA, so in  
> general you must assume that is how it acts. E.g. if it wants to  
> *answer* a call itself, before sending another call out, it can do  
> that.

Well that's a good point... but in this type of scenario why would  
the B2BUA send a 180 and not simply a 200 OK so it can start playing  
its media stream?

Cases in which a B2BUA needs to play media (such as an error message)  
but don't want to generate a billable call can play their media  
stream in a 183 but again this isn't ring tone.

In either case we're talking about mediation not initiation.

>
>> The differentiator between a B2BUA and a Proxy Server IMHO is the  
>> session mediation features you typically find in a B2BUA such as  
>> call routing, answer/disconnect supervision, etc.  Mediation is  
>> not defined by RFC3261, only Initiation.
>
> You have a particular flavor of B2BUA in mind. Many people thing  
> this is the only kind - one that often acts in a way similar to how  
> a proxy would act, except when it wants to violate one of the rules  
> that proxies must follow.

Sure I do, and I wish I had more information to give to you.

>
> These are sometimes called "transparent B2BUAs" where the model for  
> transparency is a Proxy. But the term is still ambiguous. If it is  
> to achieve full transparency it will actually be a proxy. To do  
> more than a proxy it must give up some degree of transparency.  
> Implementors have varying ideas about what they need to do and what  
> aspects of transparency they are willing to give up.
>
> The original poster here seems to have that in mind. If it was to  
> be fully transparent it would only forward on responses in the way  
> a proxy would, so it probably wouldn't send a 180 before receiving  
> something from the UAS. Because it is a B2BUA, it MAY do this, and  
> if suitably constructed it also CAN do it. The question is whether  
> it SHOULD do it. That depends on the goals.
>
>       Paul
>
>> An interesting draft to see would be "Session Mediation with the  
>> Session Initiation Protocol and Session Description Protocol"
>> Cheers
>> -Daniel
>> On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:46 PM, Sunil Kumar Verma wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Paul and Uttam.
>>>
>>>   I have B2BUA, so we can say that B2BUA can generate 180 RINGING  
>>> for
>>>   the call which are yet to be answered at the far end??
>>>   Caller receives ringback tone only if the called party is  
>>> ringing..
>>>   Think of a scenario..
>>>   if the called user has voice mail configured and due to some  
>>> network
>>> problem his client
>>>   ,after registering to B2BUA, is out of network. The B2BUA still  
>>> consider
>>> that the user is available
>>>   and if somebody tries to reach that user he hear deaf silence  
>>> and then
>>> after 10 to 15 sec the call goes to Voice mail.
>>>   Is there any way we can avoid the deaf scilence in case of B2BUA?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Sunil Verma
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 3:36 PM
>>> To: Sarkar, Uttam
>>> Cc: Sunil Kumar Verma; [email protected]
>>> Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] 180 Ringing from Proxy(BBUA)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sarkar, Uttam wrote:
>>>> Nope. It can send 100 Trying.
>>>> 180 would have "totag" that would create a dialog. Without  
>>>> getting any
>>>> reponse from client B. You can't create a dialog.
>>>
>>> That is correct answer for a proxy. For a B2BUA almost anything is
>>> possible. It depends on what the B2BUA is trying to accomplish.
>>>
>>>     Paul
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of  
>>>> Sunil
>>>> Kumar Verma
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:52 PM
>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>> Subject: [Sip-implementors] 180 Ringing from Proxy(BBUA)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Hi,
>>>>
>>>>    In case of BBUA, is it possible for proxy to generate 1xx  
>>>> response
>>>> for an INVITE, before receiving any reply from
>>>>    terminating SIP client.
>>>>     For Ex. SIP client A calling another SIP client B, and before
>>>> receiving any reply from the SIP client B for the initial
>>>>     INVITE, can proxy generate 180 RINIGING reply?
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks
>>>>  Sunil verma
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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