>>Basically, a large number of people wanted the error to NOT be explicit, and 
>>allow "downgrades". 
 
I still don't get it.
In a similar scenario, if you're using a web browser then the user will know
what sites are secure because of the padlock icon.  When diverted away
from a secure site (automatically) the user can see the padlock disappears.
And in some cases, the browser will display a message to tell the user
that the connection is no longer secure.
 
I don't see why the equivalent thing can't be done in SIP/SIPS.
The security (or lack of) doesn't matter provided the user is informed.
It should be up to the user to decide if they want to allow a downgrade,
not the protocol specification.   I agree that a bad implementor could do
the downgrade secretly but, for me, this is no different to a bad web browser
which doesn't tell you about the security level - you simply wouldn't choose
to use such a browser.
 
I know SIP and HTTP are different but I can't see the difference
in this case.
 
Regards,
Attila
 

________________________________

From: Francois Audet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wed 01/08/2007 22:19
To: Attila Sipos
Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-05: 480 vs. 418


Basically, a large number of people wanted the error to NOT be explicit, and 
allow "downgrades". 
 
The use of the Warning is a compromise for them. The idea being that most 
people will ignore the warning and just fail the call, unless they really know 
what they are doing.
 
 


________________________________

        From: Attila Sipos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
        Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 14:05
        To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055); Michael Thomas
        Cc: IETF SIP List
        Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-05: 480 vs. 418
        
        
        by the way what were the objections?
        just curious.
         
        Regards,
         
        Attila
         

________________________________

        From: Francois Audet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
        Sent: Wed 01/08/2007 16:55
        To: Michael Thomas
        Cc: IETF SIP List
        Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-05: 480 vs. 418
        
        

        
        
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Michael Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
        > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 04:25
        > To: Rohan Mahy
        > Cc: Hadriel Kaplan; 'IETF SIP List'; Audet, Francois
        > (SC100:3055); [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Paul Kyzivat'
        > Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-05: 480 vs. 418
        >
        > Question: as currently defined can these two new warnings be
        > reused by any future method that is hopefully more secure
        > than SIPS so that we don't have to rehash this argument again?
        
        The draft uses the Warn-codes in 480. But it could be used
        by other response (e.g., 424 for location conveyance, if we
        decide it makes sense). Or any other response.
        
        I'm assuming you mean "other URI schemes" instead of "other
        methods".
        
        I currently have it as follows:
        
           380  SIPS Not Allowed
        
           381  SIPS Required
        
        So, obviously, they are tied to SIPS.
        
        If we defined another URI scheme (e.g., sipsec or whatever), then it
        would probably need new Warning Codes.
        
        The alternative, which I presented in Chicago, based on Attila's
        proposal
        (i.e., defining a new header that specifically list the Allowed or
        Required
        URI schemes) was NOT viewed favorably by the group.
        
        
        
        
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