Hey John,
For the case where the IP-PBX registers into the SP, outbound can be used.  But 
it's the other case I was talking about: where the IP-PBX does NOT register 
into the SP, but it instead is a trunk.

-hadriel


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elwell, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:15 AM
> To: Hadriel Kaplan; DRAGE, Keith (Keith); [email protected]
> Cc: Christer Holmberg
> Subject: RE: [Sip] Progress draft-holmberg-sip-keep
>
> Hadriel,
>
> Concerning your "PBX connections a la SIP trunks" use case, I am not
> convinced of this. ETSI TISPAN has specified two ways for an IPPBX to
> connect to a service provider. One is the so-called subscription-based
> approach, where the IPPBX registers with the SP and communicates via an
> edge proxy. In this case, why not use SIP-outbound? The other is the
> so-called peering-based approach, which is essentially the same as any
> SIP "trunk", e.g., proxy-to-proxy, B2BUA-to-B2BUA, proxy-to-gateway.
> SIP-outbound does not apply to these situations, and similarly the
> keep-alive mechanism is not specified for this cases. The requirements
> in SIP-keep do not cover these situations.
>
> Basically I am not sold on the idea of a separate SIP-keep spec - I
> don't think it would be the best use of WG time.
>
> John
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Hadriel Kaplan
> > Sent: 20 June 2008 18:20
> > To: DRAGE, Keith (Keith); [email protected]
> > Cc: Christer Holmberg
> > Subject: Re: [Sip] Progress draft-holmberg-sip-keep
> >
> >
> > My 2 cents: it is a useful draft.  Personally, I would like
> > to have it available for two reasons not cited: PBX
> > connections a la SIP trunks, and proxy-proxy connections.
> > Today I think a lot of people are using OPTIONS requests or
> > proprietary means to perform such keep-alives when
> > registration is not appropriate, but it has led to some
> > interop issues and performance concerns in some cases.
> >
> > Since the contentious issue of what form the keep-alives take
> > have already been agreed on for outbound, this seems like a
> > simple draft to get done. (famous last words, I know)
> >
> > -hadriel
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of
> > > DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:31 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Cc: Christer Holmberg
> > > Subject: [Sip] Progress draft-holmberg-sip-keep
> > >
> > > (As SIP WG cochair)
> > >
> > > We have been asked by the author of
> > >
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-holmberg-sip-keep-01.txt
> > >
> > > Whether the SIP WG can progress this document.
> > >
> > > Because this draft arose as a result of the discussion of
> > outbound, and
> > > indeed seems to reuse the requirements from outbound, and these
> > > requirements never really got handled in the SIPPING WG, it has been
> > > agreed with the SIPPING chairs that we will handle this
> > entirely within
> > > SIP.
> > >
> > > Now in order to ask for charter milestones, and indeed when
> > we finally
> > > present this to IESG, we will be asked for the level of
> > support in the
> > > WG, which is also predicated on does this fix a real
> > problem, or is it
> > > just a corner case with limited application. So:
> > >
> > > QUESTION 1 TO SIP WG: Are the use cases sufficiently important to
> > > proceed with this draft? The document states:
> > >
> > >    Chapter 3.5 of draft-ietf-sip-outbound-13 [I-D.ietf-sip-outbound]
> > >    defines two keep-alive techniques.  Even though the keep-alive
> > >    techniques are separated from the Outbound mechanism
> > >    [I-D.ietf-sip-outbound], it is currently not possible to indicate
> > >    support of the keep-alive techniques without also
> > indicating support
> > >    for the Outbound mechanism.
> > >
> > >    The Outbound mechanism is enabled during the UA
> > registration phase.
> > >    However, there are use-cases where the UA does not
> > register itself,
> > >    but still needs to be able to make calls and maintain
> > NAT bindings
> > >    open during the duration of that call.  A typical example is
> > >    emergency calls.  There are also cases where entities do
> > not support
> > >    the Outbound mechanism, but still want to be able to
> > indicate support
> > >    and use the keep-alive techniques defined in
> > [I-D.ietf-sip-outbound].
> > >
> > > At first sight this is not the most inspiring declaration
> > of the need
> > > for the document. Please respond indicating whether you
> > consider this a
> > > useful draft, and propose text that you think would be
> > useful in this
> > > section. Conversely, if you think this draft is not useful
> > and the WG
> > > has other more important things to work on first, please
> > also respond.
> > >
> > > QUESTION 2 TO SIP WG: Do we have a robust set of requirements for
> > > proceeding with this work? The document currently lists:
> > >
> > >    REQ 1: It MUST be possible for a UA to indicate support
> > of the keep-
> > >    alive techniques defined [I-D.ietf-sip-outbound] if the
> > UA supports
> > >    only the keep-alive part of [I-D.ietf-sip-outbound].
> > >
> > >    REQ 2: It MUST be possible for an edge proxy to indicate
> > support of
> > >    the keep-alive techniques defined
> > [I-D.ietf-sip-outbound] if the edge
> > >    poxy supports only the keep-alive part of
> > [I-D.ietf-sip-outbound].
> > >
> > > It would be desirable to agree these at the outset, and not
> > revisit them
> > > if we continue with the work. So if you require clarification,
> > > modification, or addition to these two requirements, then
> > please also
> > > response with your questions and proposals.
> > >
> > > I suggest we would like responses by 30th June 2008 in
> > order to allow
> > > the author to revise the document before the deadlines.
> > Please note that
> > > we are looking to make this decision on the list within
> > this deadline
> > > based on responses received, not leave it until the Dublin meeting.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Keith
> > > _______________________________________________
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