Re: [smartBridges] Outdoor or Indoor...Conduit or not.....that is the question

[Bobby Bounds]

Title: Message

Point taken about the cable shielding being for noise rejection and not lightning. Keep in mind, in this thread we are not talking about lightning strikes. Insted we are talking about 'induced current' in ethernet cable caused by nearby electrical storms. That is what is hurting us. If "lightning" took out one or two units a year, that's just part of the business. Our problem is much more severe. We've lost 12 radios to this in the last three months.   Bobby Bounds Airwave Internet, LLC     ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Haynes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:22 AM Subject: RE: [smartBridges] Outdoor or Indoor...Conduit or not.....that is the question I would like someone to explain to me why shielding the 12" pigtail would make any difference since the radio is in a plastic box. A certin number of radios will always be lost to lightning. It is just part of the business. I believe, the only people that need to worry about it much are those in lightning prone areas or those people that are protecting equipment that cost more that the lightning protection. Of course, every install will be different. None of my tower installs have lightning protection. Do you remember the pictures of a guy inside a big cage and electrical surges striking all around the cage but not him? On my three tower installs, I have made sure that my antenna is not the highest object, no part of my system is grounded and any wires running down the tower run inside the tower structure. I have survived several direct tower hits already. I have never lost a piece of equipment to lightning while the buildings around have always lost a NIC, cable modem and router. I can't say I know why this works, I just know it works for me. One last thought, cable shielding is not for lightning protection, It is for noise rejection. If a lightning bolt has already travled 5 miles to hit your tower, what could you possibly put it the way to stop it? I'd prefer to just stay out of the way :-) -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Email Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 8:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [smartBridges] Outdoor or Indoor...Conduit or not.....that is the question Ok Nish   Sorry I was late getting back in and just now catching up   When you put the put the male to  male barrel connector on the bottom of the radio, you have to be very careful not to twist the N connector inside the radio, the only thing I would suggest would be to double reinforce the bottom of the radio.   OK, as far as waterproofing, it is almost impossible to tape the antenna led and barrel to the radio, first off the radio is so thin the washer sticks out on the side. We actually take the mount off to do the taping and still worry that water may be able to penetrate close to the washer   Joe K -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Nish Park Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 11:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [smartBridges] Outdoor or Indoor...Conduit or not.....that is the question Bobby, As I mentioned, we are listening to you. But some of these are not black and white rules. But we will still incorporate as much as we can as part of continuous improvement of our products.   Just as another example to illustrate my point about �debatable� � You are recommending to put N connector inside the NEMA bos. But did you know that the N connector is designed to be an outdoor weatherproof connector by itself? People who designed it would argue and argue on any suggestions to further weatherproof it. According to them any failure would be considered installation failure.  But we see that happen often. We don�t care if it is the bad connector design or the bad installation. The failure happens.  So recently we started putting tape and some goopy stuff in each box to help people seal it properly.   And as Jeremy Osewalt mentioned, let�s try to move to the .g and the .a and the next alphabet J   Nish      -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bobby Bounds Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 11:37 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [smartBridges] Outdoor or Indoor...Conduit or not.....that is the question   <Groan>.....Nish,   I think we are having a 'failure to communicate'. Our main points are:   1. Unshielded CAT 5 installs are NOT ACCEPTABLE (in lightning prone areas). Do you or anyone else want to dispute me on this? Have at it.   2. The 8" of unshielded CAT 5 coming out of the radio has the potential of letting in stray EM surges. Surges are bad, therefore the design is bad. Go ahead make your argument for the current design, I'd like to see it.   3. The watertight RJ45 connector that comes w/the units is better than nothing but it is LAME. I'm no expert like some of the guys on this list, but I'm thinking the pros would punch something down inside a NEMA box or something similar. And on a similar subject, I think the N-Connection to the antenna should be inside a box as well.   4. You should publish an engineering quality spec (not the vague suggestions I've seen from SB) for grounding and it should be the first thing a customer reads when they open the box.   Free your mind Nish, beautiful things will come of it.   Bobby Bounds Airwave Internet, LLC   P.S. Glad to hear you are thinking about improving the 'Total' product line. It needs an internal CAT 5 connection method, better antenna performance, better mounting system (just look at how satellite TV dish mounts are made and you'll have it pegged), a grounding system so that when the customer uses shielded CAT 5, they can ground from the radio to the shield on the CAT 5, and a new/improved 'Power Shot' with surge protection. Also, duplicate the lights that are on the radio onto the Power Shot since you cannot see those lights from inside the house which limits their usefulness. So, what if the Power Shot were a nice little box that sits on the customer's desk with a big red 'Reset' button on it? That would be swell.     -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Nish Park Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 8:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [smartBridges] Outdoor or Indoor...Conduit or not.....that is the question Bobby and Joe,   We are hearing you. But all the 3 points you guys mention do not have any clear �right or wrong� answers. We can debate till the cows come home on their merits.   Now having said that, we are looking at making some enhancements to the TOTAL product line. After almost 6 months of field usage and customer comments, we have identified a few things to make it more interesting. At that time we will consider some of the points you are describing. But I think those changes are being considered more for the �psychological� impact.   Thanks.   Ps. Why do you think RJ45 connector inside the box is more moisture resistant? The box and the connector have the same IP rating for being weatherproof and prevent water entry. But neither of them is air tight and thus has no impact on the moisture.     Nish     -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Email Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:07 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [smartBridges] Outdoor or Indoor...Conduit or not.....that is the question   Bobby   Those three things you mentioned are the 3 things I have been trying to get sBridges to address   This is the reason we have been holding off buying any more radios, hopeing they will address soon Again this is the only concern we have with the sBridges equipment I have heard them address every other issue but the grounding and shielding issue My opinion is they have been very responsive on the chip problem and the other issues   I told Dilish when we first started testing the radios this waterproof connector and the nonshielded cat 5 was a major concern of ours   Joe K -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Bobby Bounds Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 7:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Outdoor or Indoor...Conduit or not.....that is the question Thanks for weighing in, Nish. For newbies to this biz, if you live in an electrical storm area and you are going to use outdoor radios you MUST shield and surge protect the CAT 5 as well as ground the radio and ground the CAT 5 shield. This should be clearly stated on the installation instructions and SB needs to immediately address the problem of the 8" inches of unshielded CAT 5 sticking out of the radios.   As for your opinion that the advantages of outdoor radios outweigh the disadvantages, I could not disagree with you more. If outdoor units "blow up" with the slightest surge in the CAT 5 and indoor installations don't have this problem, how on earth could you make that statement with a straight face? The SB line of outdoor radios are improperly designed when it comes to grounding and shielding the CAT 5. A little acknowledgement from SB in this regard would be encouraging. Here's the shortlist: Unshielded CAT 5 sticking out of the unit with no way of correcting this in the field. 'All weather' connector on the CAT 5 is just a problem waiting to happen in regards to moisture. Connector should be inside the radio. Radio case should be metalized.   Also, it would be nice if you have an opinion on the conduit question.   As for use, we are going to use indoor radios for the time being. Also we'll keep experimenting with shielding and using conduit.   Kind regards,       Bobby Bounds Airwave Internet, LLC       ----- Original Message ----- From: Nish Park To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 12:47 AM Subject: RE: [smartBridges] Outdoor or Indoor...Conduit or not.....that is the question   Bobby,   I hope you get good help from the list on how to better protect the outdoor equipment. Damage to 6 units (from all different brands) in just one week points to something very peculiar in your setup.   As to the Indoor or Outdoor question, I think the advantages of mounting the Outdoor radio far outweigh the disadvantages you list.   Nish     -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bobby Bounds Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 12:14 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [smartBridges] Outdoor or Indoor...Conduit or not.....that is the question   Hi everyone......we all know (or think we know) the advantages of using outdoor radios for CPE. They are (your list may vary):   Less db loss in the coax - because the radio is right next to the antenna. Also less cost due to not having to use as much coax. Easier cable install - install CAT 5 instead of bulky LMR. Also you can do longer runs with CAT 5 than coax. Cleaner install at the wall jack - just use an RJ 45 outlet. I may have missed one or two or major benefits but that is all I can think of at the moment.   Now, my point is this. Using outdoor radios has its' disadvantages doesn't it? Such as:   Failures caused by lightning surge, moisture, heat, cold, etc. Last year when SB came out w/the outdoor units I was all jazzed up. In my ignorance I thought the smaller diameter cable run and not having to use coax would be just peachy. I am no longer of that opinion. If you've been following my rants you know our problem here in New Mexico is inductive surge caused by electrical storm activity in the vicinity (the damage tally for the week is two ABO's, 2 Linksys routers, and two integrated NICS in the customer's machines).   So, the party is over. We got our ass kicked. Our ignorance (combined with flaky SB outdoor radios) has been a real bad combo. Not once on this list have I heard any mention that you guys use conduit for customer installs. Why is that? Cost? Labor? Ignorance (like us)? It seems to me now that (in lightning prone areas) the only smart thing to do is use metal conduit starting from the hole in the wall of the house and going to within a few inches of the other end (antenna and/or radio). The reason for metal conduit instead of PVC plastic is that you can use the metal conduit as part of your grounding system.   So, let's say you are using an outdoor SB radio mounted next to the antenna. Why not stick it in a metal elect. utility box or NEMA box? The ethernet crimp would stay high and dry in there. Also, use shielded CAT 5. Run it inside the 3/4" metal conduit. Go down the side of the house with the conduit (looks less worse than cable, you or the customer can paint it to match the structure).   Also, let's say you are using an Indoor radio; I submit to you that it is smart to still use conduit because the conduit extends the life of the coax by like 15 years. I hear the coax starts to crap out after 5 years or so. Another idea I have is to use a small metal box on the outside of the structure right where it enters the house. The conduit can connect into this box, also you can put a Polyphaser in there, and it covers the hole in the house. Then go to earth ground, of course.   Is there extra cost to this? Of course...but it's chump change compared to the cost of rework, truck rolls, and loss of goodwill. Please critique these ideas and help me to refine them. Anyone using conduit at this point?   Finally, I would state that given the disadvantages of the outdoor units I'd have to opine that (all things considered) an indoor radio install has a significant advantage over an outdoor radio install. Do you agree?   So, the issues are:   Outdoor or indoor Conduit or no   Bobby Bounds Airwave Internet