Thanks for such a detailed reply. Very interesting. This might sound daft, but does this mean that you guys use a 16 db Sector at cust premises (at least with single antenna arangements such as sB) in order to maintain a reciprocal path ? bw
----- Original Message ----- From: "Eje Gustafsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Brian Winter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question > BW> Eje, > BW> Isn't this only true if the other end does the same ? Else you could end up > BW> with a non-reciprocal path with (say) fade margin of +5dB in one direction > BW> and -3dB in the > BW> other. This could mean rates of 11Mb one way (from "amp" end), 5.5Mb in the > BW> other, negotiating to the worst (or worse still, switching ro retrying) and > BW> the installer wondering why the amp has "no" effect ? > > I always assume that you use max allowed EIRP on the base station end > such as say a 23dB radio into a 13dB antenna (36dB which is the limit > for ptmp in FCC territory). > > BW> I think we have a different issue in UK. Not sure about you guys but the > BW> regs here are about EIRP. So if you crank up the antenna gain you should > BW> crank down the radio o/p power for +20dBm EIRP. High gain aerials are still > BW> useful for the receive side though. The legal use of amps is very limited > BW> here, as you can't get the radio o/p LOW enough. Ironic, as you guys are > BW> seeking higher power radios, we're seeking lower power radios. > BW> bw > > In UK things are a bit different since your limited to 20dBm EIRP no > 24dB grids for you guys. 16dB antenna would mean 4dB radio gain. > Which means you have to run very small pops to get the signal through. > > It's sort of ironic yes. But consider that we can do 48dB on the CPE > and and 36dB at the base station end. Due to physical size anything > much larger then 24dB antenna is not really possible which means to > reach our maximum limit we need 24dB radios. With the sB radios only > being 17dB that means we are 7dB short of what we maximum legally > could use. > With a 17dB base station that means you would need a 19dB antenna to > reach the max legal limit of 36dB for base station. I don't know about > you but some in the US might have seen the sizes 16dB sectors are then > just imagine yourself a 19dB that would mean you would have to enlarge > the antenna 100% so going from aprox 4ft to 8ft. > Another problem when going so high on the sector/omni antenna is your > beamwidth gets REALLY narrow. A 16dB sector have 7deg beam so you > don't want to use anything larger then that.. > So to reach max power we need at least a 100mw radio (20dB) and a 16dB > sector. With a 12dB sector (2' long and gives 18deg beam width) you > would need a 24dB radio (which means 250mW radio). > > AMPs causes extra noise injection and other bad things so personally I > would rather use a 23dB radio and miss that 1 extra dB in power then > use a 250mW AMP. > > IMO sB should NOT try to built a one fits all solution. Because the > requirements and restrictions are SOOO extremely different in North > America and in Europe. What you need have have to live by don't work > for us and what we want don't work for you.. > > Many other companies like for example Alvarion builds one set or units > for the North American market and one for the European market. They > have slightly different specs and are tailored for the respective > market. > I think it's for example Alvarion that offers a diversity antenna unit > in the European market where one antenna port is for receive only and > one is for transmit only. This way you can have a 24dB receive antenna > and say a 16dB transmit antenna with 4dB radio power. > This means you get a total of 40dB antenna gain on a link just to get > that little extra edge. > > - Eje > > BW> ----- Original Message ----- > BW> From: "Eje Gustafsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > BW> To: "Nimesh D. Parikh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > BW> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 5:51 AM > BW> Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question > > > >> I will have to agree with you there that smaller cells (no more then > >> 4-5 miles) are better solution in the long run. Because with large > >> cells you have to do high installs on the CPE end to get a good > >> signal. > >> But higher power on the radio sure helps out in many situations and > >> allow you to have to avoid the extremely large, bulky and ugly 24dB > >> grid dishes. If one can do say the 16dB Vagi's or maybe 19dB grids > >> that are not so large then everyone is happier. But to drop from 24dB > >> antenna to say a 16dB antenna means you have to get 8dB more power > >> somewhere so going from a 17dB radio to say a 23dB radio then is > >> essential because then your total EIRP still is close to the same and > >> the link you could make with the 24dB antenna you now can do with a > >> 16dB antenna... > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Eje "Aya" Gustafsson mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> The Family Entertainment Network http://www.fament.com > >> Phone : 620-231-7777 Fax : 240-376-7272 > >> - Your Full Time Professionals - > >> Online Store http://www.wisp-router.com/ > >> MikroTik, Star-OS, PACWireless, EnGenius, RF Industries > >> -- > >> > >> NDP> Joe, > >> NDP> You have all our attention. We agree with the higher power > BW> requirement > >> NDP> and working towards designing it in our next generation radio > BW> platforms. > >> NDP> Unfortunately it is not easy to make this change in the existing > BW> radio > >> NDP> card being used in all our products. > >> > >> NDP> This is slightly OT. I know many of you try to make long shots to > BW> cover > >> NDP> the large areas. But having seen many different deployment > BW> strategies, I > >> NDP> think smaller cell site architecture is better. > >> > >> NDP> Thanks. > >> > >> NDP> Nimesh > >> > >> > >> > >> NDP> -----Original Message----- > >> NDP> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> NDP> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Email > >> NDP> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 6:32 AM > >> NDP> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> NDP> Subject: RE: [smartBridges] Amp Question > >> > >> NDP> Stuart > >> NDP> I know you are not responding to my post, but I made one similar > >> > >> NDP> I personally am trying to get smartBridges attention, because from > BW> what > >> NDP> I am > >> NDP> hearing > >> NDP> the radios are not performing as well as they could. I like > BW> smartBridges > >> NDP> and > >> NDP> have tried to > >> NDP> stay the course, but with the testing we are doing I am not satisfied > >> NDP> with > >> NDP> the power the > >> NDP> radios are putting out. > >> > >> NDP> Whether amps would help or not, I personally do not know, but I am > BW> going > >> NDP> to > >> NDP> try one > >> NDP> smartBridges is coming out with the XO and XO2, why not up the power > BW> so > >> NDP> we > >> NDP> could use > >> NDP> small antennas on the CPe(this is the big cost). > >> > >> NDP> My observations > >> > >> NDP> joe k > >> NDP> -----Original Message----- > >> NDP> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> NDP> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stuart Pierce > >> NDP> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:31 PM > >> NDP> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> NDP> Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question > >> > >> > >> NDP> Teletronics had their all-in-one AP hotspot with a poe powered amp > >> NDP> inside. > >> NDP> But this is a Smartbridges list. > >> > >> NDP> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > >> NDP> From: Rick Kunze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> NDP> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> NDP> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:00:06 -0800 > >> > >> >>Not sure exactly what you mean here, as the amp is on the RF side, not > >> NDP> the > >> >>Ethernet side. What I need is one that can go between an ABO and an > >> >>antenna, outdoors, where the LMR run is only a couple feet. > >> >> > >> >>Rk > >> >> > >> >>At 08:49 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: > >> >>>We've been thinking about carying the Luxul POE amp. But we were not > >> NDP> sure > >> >>>what the interest level is. Here's a good time to ask. Is there any > >> >>>interest in a POE powered amp that would need to be protected from the > >> NDP> weather? > >> >>> > >> >>>Mike B > >> >>>Electro-comm > >> >>> > >> >>>Patrick wrote: > >> >>>>Earl, > >> >>>>Does the RF Linx have POE power? I can't seem to find any from them > >> NDP> that > >> >>>>aren't power over coax.... > >> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>>>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Earl Campbell > >> >>>>>To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:52 PM > >> >>>>>Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>Amps can be a curse also. The repeater becomes what we call an > >> NDP> alligator > >> >>>>>mouth. Everyone in 30 mi radius can hear it bit the AP can't hear > >> NDP> the > >> >>>>>CPE's. So be careful with amps and I recommend RF Linx. Good price > >> NDP> and > >> >>>>>they have filtering in both the TX and RX side. > >> >>>>>Earl UpHi.net > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>-------Original Message------- > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>From: > >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>Date: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 01:41:24 PM > >> >>>>>To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>>Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>Not entirely correct. The amp must be part of a CERTIFIED SYSTEM. A > >> NDP> number > >> >>>>>of manufacturers provide same--YDI and others. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>JH > >> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>>>From: "Curt Perryman" > >> >>>>><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >>>>>To: > >> <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 11:29 AM > >> >>>>>Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > Amps are not authorized by the FCC and in fact are specifically > >> >>>>> prohibited > >> >>>>> > in the Rules. Use of one would void the type acceptance. > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > At 10:14 AM 11/05/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >> >>>>> > >I want to put an amp on a pop I have for testing a possible > >> NDP> project. > >> >>>>> Does > >> >>>>> > >anyone know an amp that isn't powered over the rf-cable like the > >> NDP> ydi > >> >>>>>outdoor > >> >>>>> > >units? I have an APPO up the tower and wonder how people are > >> NDP> putting > >> NDP> the > >> >>>>> > >amp in between the radio and antenna. Are any poe powered? I > >> NDP> wouldn't > >> >>>>>mind > >> >>>>> > >making another cat5 run, I just don't want to run rf-cable and > >> >>>>> induce the > >> >>>>> > >loss. > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > >Thanks, > >> >>>>> > >Patrick > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > > > >> >>>>> > >The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List > >> >>>>> > >To Join: > >> NDP> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>> (in the body type subscribe > >> >>>>> > >smartBridges <yournickname> > >> >>>>> > >To Remove: > >> NDP> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>> (in the body type unsubscribe > >> >>>>> > >smartBridges) > >> >>>>> > >Archives: > >> NDP> <http://archives.part-15.org>http://archives.part-15.org > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List > >> >>>>> > To Join: > >> >>>>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> NDP> (in > >> >>>>> the body type subscribe > >> >>>>>smartBridges <yournickname> > >> >>>>> > To Remove: > >> NDP> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>>>> (in the body type unsubscribe > >> >>>>>smartBridges) > >> >>>>> > Archives: > >> NDP> <http://archives.part-15.org>http://archives.part-15.org > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List > >> >>>>>To Join: > >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> NDP> (in > >> >>>>>the body type subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> > >> >>>>>To Remove: > >> >>>>><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> NDP> (in > >> >>>>>the body type unsubscribe smartBridges) > >> >>>>>Archives: > >> >>>>><http://archives.part-15.org>http://archives.part-15.org > >> >>>>>. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>____________________________________________________ > >> >>>>><http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9> > >> >>>>>420f4d5.gif > >> >>>>><http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9> > >> NDP> IncrediMail - > >> >>>>>Email has finally evolved - > >> >>>>><http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9>Click Here > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> NDP> --- > >> NDP> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus By Avolve.net] > >> > >> NDP> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List > >> NDP> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe > >> NDP> smartBridges <yournickname> > >> NDP> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe > >> NDP> smartBridges) > >> NDP> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org > >> > >> > >> NDP> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List > >> NDP> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe > >> NDP> smartBridges <yournickname> > >> NDP> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe > >> NDP> smartBridges) > >> NDP> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org > >> > >> NDP> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List > >> NDP> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type > >> NDP> subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> > >> NDP> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe > BW> smartBridges) > >> NDP> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org > >> > >> -- > >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > >> > >> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List > >> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe > BW> smartBridges <yournickname> > >> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe > BW> smartBridges) > >> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org > >> > > BW> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List > BW> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type > BW> subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> > BW> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe smartBridges) > BW> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org > > -- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List > To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> > To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe smartBridges) > Archives: http://archives.part-15.org > The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe smartBridges) Archives: http://archives.part-15.org
