On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:47, Sean DALY <[email protected]> wrote: > There are several intertwined issues here and I would like to make my > position clear (or clearer ;-) on several points. > > 1. "Sugar on a Stick" is indeed a brand, and the Marketing Team has > been building it as a brand. It has "brand equity": value, a topic I > will elaborate on shortly in a separate post. We are building the > brand because it is a key part of the Sugar Labs strategy to make > Sugar known as an available alternative on classroom computers > (whatever they are). As a Sugar Labs brand, I have advocated for > months that it be trademarked. > > 2. Branding only works if the underlying value proposition - the > product, goods, or services - is of interest and value to the target > market. In non-marketing jargon, that means the product itself must be > good for the brand to grow, and to achieve a breakout of quick growth > (say 2 years instead of 10), the product must be great. > > 3. "Sugar on a Stick" can only grow as a brand if we carefully choose > how it is presented and promoted and perceived. Anyone wishing to > modify Sugar on a Stick should either do so and call it something > else, or consult with us so their contribution can be better > integrated into the project, and we can be sure confusion will be > avoided, and we can even leverage their initiative in our marketing.
Btw, have we considered already allowing derivatives of SoaS be called SoaS remix or so like Fedora does? Regards, Tomeu > Unfortunately, sugaronastick.com is damaging the brand, because it > creates confusion. Confusion is deadly to any growing brand. Caroline, > we can try to fit what you're doing with that site into the Sugar Labs > strategy, but opening that site without consulting the community may > have compromised that. Many of us have our work on that site, yet we > have no say in it, and that's not OK. Of course, there would be no > issue if the version and site were named differently. > > 4. As Martin Dengler has passionately and eloquently pointed out, at > this time no one is in a position to support Sugar on a Stick in a way > that scales. My view is that a for-profit ecosystem of integrators > working for schools needs to be developed. However, it's a wide-open > question at this point whether and how this should be done. Which is > why Sugar on a Stick's main role now and in at least the year to come > is not as a deployable solution for schools, but the best way of > spreading the word to teachers that an alternative exists. In this > light, I believe it is premature to present SoaS as school-ready. And, > we cannot encourage anyone to call any liveUSB Sugar implementation > "Sugar on a Stick", because unofficial versions will not be > supportable, and the result will be damage to the brand. > > 5. Everyone needs to make a living, and all of us are contributing our > valuable time, and many of us funds, to get Sugar off the ground. In > my view, a fair approach would be for expenses to be tallied and > reimbursed at such a time as we have sufficient funding to do so. I > certainly won't begrudge you the time, money and resources you are > putting into Sugar Labs, but I'm afraid there is a lack of clarity > between what you're doing for Sugar Labs and what you want to do for > profit. Imagine for example if I set up a marketing consultancy and > sold deployment kits to schools for profit - I would be wearing two > hats, and community members would rightly wonder in which best > interest I would be acting as I proposed media campaigns. > > 6. I believe we are breaking new ground with what we are doing, which > means it could fail. I cannot guarantee widespread positive perception > of Sugar, but I can guarantee that without Sugar Labs calling the > shots on Sugar on a Stick, we will have far greater difficulty growing > Sugar awareness. > > > Sean > Sugar Labs Marketing Coordinator > > > > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Caroline Meeks > <[email protected]> wrote: >> Hi Peter, >> I can agree with a lot of what you say here. >> >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Peter Robinson <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Caroline, >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Caroline Meeks <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > Hi Sean, >>> > >>> > What Sebastian means by this is that the Checksum must match. >>> > That means. >>> >>> I think your missing the point and understanding of SoaS. Also don't >>> speak for Sebastian, he does have the ability to speak for himself so >>> he can do so for himself! >> >> Your right. I should say, what Sebastian told me when we spoke was.... >>> >>> > you can't change the default language >>> > you can't change what activities are in it or even which are in the >>> > favorite >>> > ring >>> > you can't add drivers >>> > you can't add an eBook >>> > you can't patch a known bug even with an accepted patch >>> >>> You can add all of these and what ever else you like. But if you wish >>> to you can't call it SoaS. Running as a standard live cd its static >>> but as a properly configured 'stick' it has a writeable home directory >>> as which means the user can add what ever they like. As the user >>> settings for activities, eBooks, and the ring are stored in the home >>> directory they can all be changed. >> >> that is not what Sebastian told me in a lengthy conversation. I agree that >> its what you mean and I think a lot of other people may agree with your >> thinking. I think pinning down exactly what is meant is extremely important >> to this discussion. >>> >>> > Also since Sugar Labs does not have a Trademark on Sugar on a Stick, >>> > only on >>> > Sugar, I'm not sure what you are going to ask people who want to do >>> > these >>> > very reasonable things to call it? I think you have to insist they >>> > don't >>> > use the word Sugar at all. >>> >>> Well, actually the word sugar isn't able to be trademarked as its a >>> generic word in common use your wrong there. As for the use of sugar >>> on a stick I think you are being in-genuine and trying to hop on the >>> cart to take advantage of it. But if you want to talk about trademarks >>> your making use of the SugarLabs trademarks and logos and I'm sure >>> they do have the rights to them so if you want to get into discussions >>> about trademarks why don't you remove those from your site to start >>> with? Because people might start to believe your not actually >>> associated with and endorsed by SugarLabs possibly and that might >>> impact your gravy train? >> >> The gravy train is pretty thin right now. I'm running a pilot for free. >> Providing hosting for schools.sugarlabs.org and jabber.sugarlabs.org (with >> the support of our hosting provider Zill.net, thanks Patrick!) writing grant >> application, working on marketing etc. and yes I agree it might well impact >> that. >> Why don't I remove the trademarks from the site? Well first because I asked >> Walter, Mike Lee and Sean before I put them up. >> and it was in compliance with the trademark usage at the time >> and I'm talking to SLOBS about licensing etc. >> Second I think the site moves ahead our joint interests, include making the >> gravy train thicker for all. This includes sharing revenues with Sugar Labs >> and making us more attractive for grants, and increasing our audience in an >> important sector, parents who spend money on technology for their children. >>> >>> > I do see that maybe we don't want the wild west with anyone doing >>> > anything, >>> > but I'm concerned that we are going to force the very thing we are >>> > trying to >>> > prevent by this level of control, the splitting of the brand and >>> > dispersion >>> > of the teachers and parents who want to use and improve on Sugar into >>> > different silos. >>> >>> Brand is everything. Look at the way Fedora uses and enforces their >>> brand. Companies use their product but its not allowed to be called >>> Fedora. They can use the secondary Fedora Remix brand logos but not >>> the primary ones. See Linpus for example (http://www.linpus.com/). It >>> the Linux that ships on the Acer Aspire Ones for example. You can >>> install Fedora and any other package you like. >>> >>> You talk about splitting the brand.... you are the one splitting the >>> brand. What you are doing is taking a product and modifying it. What >>> your are doing is something like taking a piece of Tupperware and >>> modifying it and still calling it Tupperware. They would sue your >>> butt. >> >> Sounds like we need to be really clear about what is and isn't modification. >> Sebastian was clear on his definition. If the checksum is different its >> modified. >>> >>> > I want to promote Sugar in the geekiest 5% of the PTO (Parent, Teachers >>> > Organization) and bring those people together under the Sugar Labs >>> > umbrella. >>> > But to do that we have to give them Sugar with the stuff they want. I >>> > don't >>> > think many of even that 5% care much about Ubuntu vs Fedora. >>> > I think a lot of people will want a Sugar on a Stick that is >>> > "customized" >>> > for: >>> >>> I don't see that we're stopping you from promoting sugar, just asking >>> you to use your own name. Just create a new name for your solution as >>> the "geekiest 5% of the PTO (Parent, Teachers Organization)" will be >>> able to work out that what your offering is a supported sugar >>> environment, after all to use your term they are "geeks". >> >> You aren't stopping me. - True. I'm pretty stubborn and hard to stop. :) >> We are asking me to use a different name. This time I think its your turn to >> speak for yourself and not for the community. You seem to be asking me to >> use a different name and let people figure out its Sugar. Based on what >> Sebastian told me he seems to want them not to figure out its Sugar because >> it might result in support requests. What I think I heard when I talked to >> Sean was he wants it to be what he see's as Sugar and have the branding done >> in a consistent and positive manner. >>> >>> > Their native language, especially if its not the dominant language where >>> > they live >>> > the age of their kids >>> > has books they like >>> > actually works on their hardware (remember the official release doesn't >>> > include any driver that isn't in the Fedora release) >>> >>> So your solution offers native languages? My understanding of your >> >> >>> >>> previous emails is that your only changes to the SOAS spin is that you >>> change any servers to point to your own. So what's that got to do with >>> native languages. The SugarLabs SOAS already offers all the current >>> supported languages. The changes will remain with a properly >>> configured stick, just like I mentioned above so please stop spreading >>> FUD about the official SOAS release. >> >> Yes all the languages are there its just English by default. I believe that >> it would be attractive to people to have their language as the default and >> some books preloaded. I believe that that might increase the likelihood of >> someone downloading and trying it. I haven't done it yet, but I might and I >> certainly think its a good idea for other people to do it. >> >>> >>> > I want these people to know they are using Sugar on a Stick and tell >>> > people >>> > about Sugar on a Stick, not some other brand name. I want them to be >>> > the >>> > ambassadors that bring Sugar on a Stick to their schools. >>> >>> Yes, you want them to tell all the other people about your sugar on a >>> stick dot com so you can make money out it. Don't get me wrong. I'm >> >> I certainly wouldn't mind! Although I truely want it in schools more then I >> want the money. You can believe that or not of course. However, I'm now >> working nearly full time on Sugar on a Stick and I feel like I'm making good >> progress. Furthermore I feel like WE are making great progress. I want to >> keep working on it. That means I have to find a way to make money. I can >> apply for grants and be a direct drain on Sugar Labs or I can try to get >> parents who spend money on technology for their kids (like buying them their >> own netbooks!) to spend some on collaboration and backup for Sugar. If it >> works I get to keep working on Sugar! I get to goto conferences and talk >> about Sugar! I get to pay developers and trainers to further Sugar. I get >> to share the money with Sugar Labs and support its work around the world. I >> get to inspire competitors who bring the idea around the globe. Sounds like >> fun to me. I do want it to work. And as we discussed earlier, I'm stubborn. >> >>> >>> not against people making money. I like to do so myself :-) Why can't >>> you make your own successful brand like Linpus has by using the Fedora >> >> Because I don't actually want a successful brand. I want Sugar to be >> successful. I want people to read sugaronastick.com download Sugar and use >> it without paying for the backup service. I believe that there are some >> people who will goto a wiki and download and others who will be far more >> likely to try it from a stie that looks more commercial. I think the >> community needs both to break the 2% barrier. >> I want there people, even those who never pay for anything, which will be >> the majority, to goto their school and tell them about Sugar. I want people >> to say to their schools you don't need to buy services from these people, I >> can set up an XS for you for free! Then the school goes, wow, look at the >> thousands of dollars this guy is saving us, this is really valuable. >> I actually do think being able to have your kids in "the neighborhood" with >> their cousins in another state or country is pretty cool and worth paying >> for. I think it certainly makes Sugar way way cooler then just using it by >> yourself. >> Lots of people will just use Sugar and I want them to know that is what they >> are doing and tell all their friends. I want them to Blog about Sugar not >> about my brand. I want them to Blog about how much they can do for free and >> how their schools should use it for free! I don't want them talking about >> some other brand. >> I also think its valuable for Sugar services to have a value in the >> marketplace. People value what they pay for. They love to get things at a >> discount, to get a great deal. If its always free then you can't get a >> discount! By putting the XS services up at a price, everyone who gives it >> away/sets it up for free are now giving something people can place a value >> on. (like me btw, we are hosting 2 schools right now and I've promised a >> couple of others if they have any issues setting up the XS I'll do hosting) >> The world of school funding is very convoluted. There are grant >> applications where we have to make budgets and many of the Grantors want to >> see the project having a budget bigger then the piece they are funding. >> There are also grants that schools can get that will pay for things like >> hosting but won't pay for a server and someone to set up an XS. and vica >> versa, but having a source of for-fee hosting doesn't keep anyone from >> setting up their own XS. >> I think it can all be done in a way that builds the Sugar brand and >> convinces Schools and Countries to stop spending millions of dollars on >> software that does less and is not as good for learning. And I think I can >> make a paycheck. And I think I can make money that will help pay for >> marketing and conferences and such for Sugar Labs. >> So I'm here to work together to build the Sugar Labs brand, to increase the >> use of Sugar for free and to make a paycheck and I want to stay deeply >> involved in the Sugar community building an educator community that develops >> and shares best practices. And I want it all under the Sugar Labs brand. >> We've lost too many good people to them having to go out and get real jobs; >> Marco, Greg Smith. I don't want to have to leave for economic reasons. >> >> >> >>> product without in-genuinely using the names that are already in use >>> by SugarLabs. Why don't you go and read the Fedora Trademarks [1]. >>> SugarLabs has used the Fedora processes for other things like the >>> Feature Process and I personally think those trademark guidelines are >>> what we should adopt. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Peter >>> >>> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines >>> >>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> > From: Sean DALY <[email protected]> >>> > Date: Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:36 AM >>> > Subject: Re: [SoaS] Governance & Trademark in the Wiki >>> > To: Sebastian Dziallas <[email protected]> >>> > Cc: SoaS <[email protected]> >>> > >>> > >>> > I support these changes. >>> > >>> > Thanks Sebastian. >>> > >>> > Sean >>> > >>> > >>> > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Sebastian Dziallas <[email protected]> >>> > wrote: >>> >> From: >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Sugar_Labs/Governance/Trademark#Sugar_on_a_Stick_Guidelines >>> >> >>> >> --Sebastian >>> >> >>> >> ------ >>> >> >>> >> I am herewith proposing the following changes to the section 5a. This >>> >> has been derived from Fedora's trademark guidelines [1] and might need >>> >> to be adjusted to cover more cases, as listed in those guidelines. By >>> >> referring to Sugar on a Stick, the following draft means the project >>> >> located [2] and hosted [3] here. >>> >> >>> >> - You *may* use the term "Sugar on a Stick" whenever referring to the >>> >> official Sugar on a Stick product and its releases, as well as when >>> >> distributing unmodified copies of it. >>> >> -- However, this usage *must not* imply any endorsement by Sugar Labs >>> >> or >>> >> the Sugar on a Stick project, unless this is case and an appropriate >>> >> agreement has been reached. >>> >> >>> >> - You *may* modify Sugar on a Stick and create remixes of it. >>> >> -- However, when distributing or selling this modified version, you >>> >> *must not* call it Sugar on a Stick. >>> >> -- When not exposing the resulting product to the public, you *may* >>> >> still call it Sugar on a Stick, though. A deployment might adjust Sugar >>> >> on a Stick for its needs and still say it deployed Sugar on a Stick, as >>> >> long as the modified version is not distributed publicly. >>> >> >>> >> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/TrademarkGuidelines >>> >> [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick >>> >> [3] http://git.sugarlabs.org/projects/soas >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> SoaS mailing list >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas >>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > SoaS mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Caroline Meeks >>> > Solution Grove >>> > [email protected] >>> > >>> > 617-500-3488 - Office >>> > 505-213-3268 - Fax >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > SoaS mailing list >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas >>> > >>> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Caroline Meeks >> Solution Grove >> [email protected] >> >> 617-500-3488 - Office >> 505-213-3268 - Fax >> > _______________________________________________ > Marketing mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/marketing > -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning _______________________________________________ SoaS mailing list [email protected] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/soas
