THANK YOU JACK UNGER Ive been saying some of the smae things for a while but you said it all much better:)
Hateto see hype and BS win the day Tim Schaeffer Network Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 5:16 PM Subject: [SOCALWUG] Re: FW: [SOCALWUG] Re: WiFi Launched in Downtown Pomona > > Matthew, > > Thank you for inviting Tropos to respond to my concerns and thank you > for publishing their response. > > Unfortunately, their response consisted of nothing more than "glittering > generalities". They used a lot of fancy words that, in the real world, > mean very little because Tropos isn't really comparing themselves in a > realistic fashion to other vendors. > > My goal is always to be objective and my clients pay me to be objective. > That means that, after analyzing vendor performance claims, I have to > "call a spade a spade" or in other words, tell the truth - the good, the > bad, AND the ugly. Tropos has some good characteristics such as their > abiltity to work from a wide range of power sources and their good > receiver sensitivity however this is outweighed by the "bad" - their > seemingly endless practice of speaking only "marketese" - that is, > choosing to use high-sounding words and unrealistic claims instead of > addressing the real-world issues of performance and cost. > > For example: > > Tropos Claim - "the only mesh vendor on the market that actually > publishes performance numbers for deployed networks. With a single radio > design, Tropos can deliver in excess of 20 Mbps concurrent subscriber > capacity per square mile". > > My View - Tropos made up this "concurrent subscriber capacity per square > mile" terminology. This term is so general that it means nothing - no > information about radios per square mile or backhaul configuration. No > wonder other vendors don't compare themselves to it; it's too general. > Bottom Line: Hype, balony, smoke and mirrors... > > > Tropos Claim - "...this stems from smart routing". > > My View - Most mesh vendors use "smart" (dynamic, redundant) routing. > That's what a mesh architecture is all about. Tropos appears to be > claiming that their routing is somehow "smarter". How much "smarter" can > mesh routing get? What's the basis of their claim? > Bottom Line: Tropos hype, balony, smoke and mirrors... > > > Tropos Claim: "Additionally, focusing on the performance of the mesh > without visibility into backhaul and client performance is very > short-sighted and creates disastrous customer satisfaction scenarios". > > My View: I couldn't agree more; unfortunately that's what Tropos appears > to be doing - ignoring visibility of the backhaul. Most Tropos muni > deployements (Philadelphia, for example) are going to be using a > separate 5 GHz point-to-multipoint network for backhaul. Does Tropos' > claim of delivering "in excess of 20 Mbps concurrent subscriber capacity > per square mile" take this into account? To "innoculate" themselves from > criticism of their technical shortcomings, especially their low > throughput capability, Tropos implies that other people are "very > short-sighted". This is a very common political tactic based on > DISTRACTION and ASSUMED INNOCENCE. Accusing your adversary of possessing > the bad behavior that you yourself possess focuses the attention of the > observer away from your own shortcomings and implies that you must be > telling the truth when in fact you are guilty of the sin that you accuse > your competitor of; you are also lying by omission. In reality, other > mesh vendors can deliver better throughput capacity at a lower cost by > integrating the 5 GHz backhaul wireless network capability right into > the mesh node. > Bottom Line: Tropos hype, balony, smoke and mirrors... > > > Tropos Claim: "the ONLY vendor to optimize the link end-to-end, from the > POP to the client". > > My View: This is also meaningless. Does this "optimization" include the > separate 5 GHz backhaul network that is typically sourced from another > radio vendor? How is this "optimized"? What are the technical details of > this "optimization" process and what makes the results (reliable > throughtput delivery perhaps, or something else?) better or even as good > as any other vendor? > Bottom Line: Tropos hype, balony, smoke and mirrors... > > > Tropos Claim: "It doesn't matter if you're getting 54 Mbps in the mesh > if nobody can connect to it. It's a pretty fundamental point, and none > of the other mesh guys seem to get it". > > My View: Tropos appears to be claiming that their system is the only one > that end-users can connect to, that end-users can't connect to mesh > nodes from other vendors and that the other mesh vendors don't > understand this. Yes, Tropos does have a good receiver threshold but is > it significantly better than the other vendors? If so, by how much? I'll > bet receiver threshold is a point that EVERY mesh vendor understands. > Why does Tropos think that only they understand it? > Bottom Line: Tropos hype, balony, smoke and mirrors... > > > Bottom-bottom line - Why do I feel so passionate about Tropos marketing > behavior that I'm willing to take the all this time and energy to refute > their claims? > > I don't hate Tropos personally; I just hate the way that they market > their product. Their product isn't "bad". When Tropos is deployed in a > mesh that serves a limited number of people who need only a limited > amount of throughput in a low-interference environment, Tropos will do a > fine job but when deployed to deliver high-througput broadband wireless > service to large numbers of people in a high-noise environment (like in > Philly or San Francisco), Tropos' hype, balony, and smoke-and-mirrors > style is going to: > > 1. Cause many high-level City IT employees to lose their jobs when their > network doesn't meet their communities expectations. > 2. Cause large network deployers like Earthlink and Google to experience > very public and very embarrassing wireless network failures. > 3. Cause broadband wireless progress to be substantially set back when > people see that wireless performance doesn't live up to it's promises. > 4. Cause small WISPs to be unable to compete and therefore go out of > business (the Wal-Mart effect). > 5. Cause the "Big Brother" AT&T monopoly to almost completely "take > over" the business of providing broadband Internet access and > connectivity thereby choking off both future competition, future > economic growth and open democratic access to information on the Internet. > 6. Make lying (yes - tellling lies) the defacto standard in business, in > political, and in social interactions. > > Tropos' hype, balony, smoke and mirrors, and lies of omission can help > make all of the above consequences come to pass. We can already see > where telling lies has gotten our nation on the political and the > economic level; our very survival as a proud, a free, and a just nation > is now threatened. We as a nation can not take any more lying; we've > got to wake up; speak up, and put a stop to this lying RIGHT NOW. > > Tropos must do a 180-degree turn IMMEDIATELY and start marketing honestly. > jack > > Disclaimer: I do NOT sell wireless equipment and NOBODY has paid me to > write and to post this email. > > > > > Matthew Reed wrote: > >> >> FYI >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chari Amalavoyal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 1:19 PM >> To: Matthew Reed >> Subject: RE: [SOCALWUG] Re: WiFi Launched in Downtown Pomona >> >> Hi Matthew, >> >> Thanks for forwarding the thread along, I'm happy to try to respond. >> >> Tropos is the only mesh vendor on the market that actually publishes >> performance numbers for deployed networks . With a single radio design, >> Tropos can deliver in excess of 20 Mbps concurrent subscriber capacity >> per square mile. No other vendor can prove better capacity or better >> costs in real deployed networks. And this stems from smart routing, >> which a lot of people who're into counting radios don't seem to get. >> >> Additionally, focusing on the performance of the mesh without visibility >> into backhaul and client performance is very short-sighted and creates >> disastrous customer satisfaction scenarios. Tropos is the ONLY vendor >> to optimize the link end-to-end, from the POP to the client, to ensure >> the highest throughput, most robust and reliable subscriber experience >> in the market. That is why we were chosen for Philadelphia, New >> Orleans, Anaheim and San Francisco - because we're the only metro-scale >> Wi-Fi architecture that has been proven to deliver this type of >> subscriber experience. It doesn't matter if you're getting 54 Mbps in >> the mesh (which we know is not possible today) if nobody can connect to >> it. It's a pretty fundamental point, and none of the other mesh guys >> seem to get it. >> > > <personal stuff snipped> > >> >> Thanks, >> Chari. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Matthew Reed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 7:47 PM >> To: Chari Amalavoyal >> Subject: FW: [SOCALWUG] Re: WiFi Launched in Downtown Pomona >> >> Nara, I wanted to get your thoughts on this biased and critical response >> I >> received on a wireless forum, which I am member of. It reads like Tropos >> is >> getting an unfair estimation with their single radio solution. >> > > <personal stuff snipped> > >> >> Matthew Reed >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >> Behalf >> Of Jack Unger >> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 5:23 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [SOCALWUG] Re: WiFi Launched in Downtown Pomona >> >> >> Matthew, >> >> With all due respect to you, I must offer the following... >> >> Per Wireless Broadband Innovations's website: "Entries will be judged on >> >> the basis of the information provided to the independent judging panel >> on the entry form and additional supporting materials where permitted. >> Details of the judging panel meetings will not be disclosed". >> >> Unfortunately, it looks as if this Tropos award proves only that the >> claims that Tropos submitted about their "architecture" sounded sexier >> than the claims made by AirSpan, PicoChip, and SkyPilot. >> >> In terms of performance, Tropos single-radio, single-band mesh >> architecture is like a one-armed baseball player who claims that they >> can outplay a two-armed (dual-band, multiple-radio mesh node) baseball >> player. In time, the truth will become obvious. In the next year or two, >> >> the real-world deployments of the upcoming Tropos-based Philadelphia and >> >> San Francisco mesh networks may very well reveal the truth in terms of >> both performance and cost. >> >> Hopefully, some day soon, Tropos will "wake up" and offer a two, three, >> or four-radio dual-band mesh node. Only then can they (IMHO) claim to be >> >> a major-league contender. >> >> All the best, >> jack >> >> >> Matthew Reed wrote: >> >> >>>Friends at SOCALWUG - >>>According to Wireless Broadband Innovation's >>> >>>Tropos was awarded Best WiMAX / Wireless Broadband Product 2006 >>>Tropos was also nominated for Best Public WiFi Product 2006 >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >> >> Behalf >> >>>Of Tim Schaeffer >>>Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 5:29 PM >>>To: [email protected] >>>Subject: [SOCALWUG] Re: WiFi Launched in Downtown Pomona >>> >>>Sure for mesh all of the follwing handily outperform tropos: belair, >> >> strix, >> >>>firetide, qorvus, and both firetide and qorvus ae much less expensive >> >> and >> >>>both have builtin 5 ghz backhaul, which tropos makes you buy a seperat >>>motorola canopy for. Nomaix is just a captive portal with a firewall >> >> and >> >>>waled garden, any linux box can be configured that way using nocat and >>>iptables. Or for a cmmercial product you can Colubris. And qorvus >> >> already >> >>>has the nomadix function built into there box. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Matthew Reed >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 7:55 PM >>> Subject: [SOCALWUG] Re: WiFi Launched in Downtown Pomona >>> >>> >>> Tim, I noticed in you're post you didn't list any of the better >> >> solutions >> >>>so could you for the sake of the forum members offer one. Also, I >> >> don't >> know >> >>>if you're were aware of this an article was put out last week >> >> concerning >> the >> >>>Top 10 movers and shakers in Telecom, guess who made the list? >>> >> >> http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=94333&page_number=1&site >> = >> >>> >>> >>> Matthew Reed >>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---- >> >>>-- >>> >>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> On >> >>>Behalf Of Tim Schaeffer >>> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 6:15 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: [SOCALWUG] Re: WiFi Launched in Downtown Pomona >>> >>> >>> >>> Ijust always like it better when the best cost/perfroming systems >> >> win >> the >> >>>bid. Tropos is far far away from that- so is nomadix for that matter >> >> :) >> Much >> >>>better solutions for less money are readily availabkle these days. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tim Schaeffer >>> Network Engineer >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: Richard >>> >>> To: [email protected] >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 10:23 AM >>> >>> Subject: [SOCALWUG] Re: WiFi Launched in Downtown Pomona >>> >>> >>> >>> Yeah! >>> >>> Very perceptive, Larry... >>> >>> WHERE'S MINE!?!? >>> >>> On 5/13/06, Larry Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: >>> >>> Do I detect some jealousy here? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---- >> >>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> On >> >>>Behalf Of Tim Schaeffer >>> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:18 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: [SOCALWUG] Re: WiFi Launched in Downtown Pomona >>> >>> Marketing hype wins over technology and costeffectiveness. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tim Schaeffer >>> Network Engineer >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: Frank Keeney >>> >>> To: [email protected] >>> >>> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:58 PM >>> >>> Subject: [SOCALWUG] WiFi Launched in Downtown Pomona >>> >>> >>> >>> "The City of Pomona Califonia reached an agreement with >> >> Affiliated >> >>>Computer Services in a joint pilot project with Cheetah Wireless >>>Technologies, Inc. , Tropos Networks and Nomadix to use wireless >> >> technology >> >>>and innovative applications to enhance government efficiency, promote >>>economic growth, foster greater community satisfaction and bridge the >>>digital divide." >>> >>> Full press release here. >>> >>> >>> >>> More news from Muniwireless. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Frank Keeney >>> >>> http://www.unwiredadventures.com >>> >>> http://www.wlanparts.com >>> >> >> > > -- > Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. > Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993 > Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" > True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting > Our next WISP Workshop is June 21-22 in Atlanta, GA. > Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "SOCALWUG" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SOCALWUG SOCALWUG website: http://www.socalwug.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
