Katana might be overkill for that. But it’s not entirely clear specifically what kind of work they need to do, specifically.
Also remember that Katana doesn’t *create* 3D content, it just renders it. Houdini would provide them with a full CG toolset if they need it. It would also allow them to develop elements and pass them off to lighting without having to worry about caching things out in a way that Katana likes. On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 10:31 AM Jonathan Moore <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Tim, I was really hoping that you'd have some thoughts on the > matter. > > Gaffer is a real temptation especially if the client decides to give on > the power of RenderMan for the artist centric workflow of 3Delight (which > is really seems to have come of age recently). Unfortunately it's not > RenderMan capable, AppleSeed, Arnold and 3Delight only. But then there's > the equally insane price tag... of $0! Gotta love the Linux open source > scene. ;) > > Good to hear your take on Katana vs Houdini. My client isn't short of TD > talent to customise either and currently do use a customised Houdini > pipeline but at a far smaller (advertising) scale. > > I'm equally taken by the elegence of CEL statements and the manner in > which flexible templates can be built for different aspects of the > pipeline. My core question though is whether it's overkill for the scale of > projects an advertising agency puts though it's internal production > resource. If the pricing was closer to ADSK or Houdini Core (FX licenses > are limited at their facility), it would make the decision a little easier. > > On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 at 15:59, Tim Crowson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I used Katana at MPC, and lately have been using Houdini at Method. Bear >> in mind that my use of these products has been for feature films, with >> medium to heavy shot content. I have not used them in any other context. >> Bear in mind also that both platforms (because that’s really what they are) >> require some degree of custom development to achieve efficiency in lighting >> (as I define efficiency, at least). >> >> I far prefer Katana. >> >> In my view Katana makes it FAR easier to manage scene data without losing >> your mind. K is also much more elegant in how it handles per-pass >> overrides. Houdini’s options for per-ROP overrides (on things that are not >> the ROP itself, which is vital to be able to do) are problematic for me, >> personally. >> >> Katana also makes it much easier to read the state of things, simply by >> looking at the graph. Houdini’s paradigm presents you with a bunch of >> disconnected nodes that don’t seem to be related at all, forcing you to >> inspect parameters to see what is going on. You adapt to that, but it does >> create extra mental steps that have to be taken while working. One of my >> pet peeves is the single-line string field used in the Objects tab on ROPs. >> It’s a good deal of work to properly read that kind of field, even on mild >> shots. It’s just a space-delineated list of paths. Translating that into >> meaningful information takes more time than it should. >> >> Houdini’s takes are interesting, although the pros where I am never use >> them because of awful past experiences. And the few times I have tried to >> use them they bugged out and simply didn’t work reliably. Besides, at the >> conceptual level, I don’t agree with storing scene states (or overrides) >> abstracted from a ROP, *unless* you can combine them later. You wind up >> making one take per ROP, which then makes me wonder why they aren’t just >> stored on the ROP in the first place. >> >> Katana make sure it incredibly easy, in my view, to not only visualize >> the data flow, but also to assetize the overrides themselves, for use >> elsewhere or in other Katana files, combined in any way you like. >> >> On the lookdev and lighting fronts alike, Katana’s CEL statements >> absolutely demolish the equivalent syntax available in Houdini. CEL >> statements are simply more advanced and “smarter” in what they let you >> target within a scene graph. >> >> For me, lighting especially comes down to efficient data management. In >> film it’s far more technical of a discipline than people think. The >> artistic part can be done pretty quickly. Managing how a shot is broken >> down into layers, in a way that makes responsible use of available >> resources, is the bigger challenge. And in my view Katana is the king here >> (though Image Engine’s Gaffer is very similar, from what I understand). >> >> I have been using Houdini lately on Aquaman and I guess it’s the stress >> of production building up, but it’s really just getting on my nerves. Seems >> like there are far too many possible points of failure and bugs, unless you >> design a strong custom UX front end, and that’s a lot of work. Getting >> Katana up to production-ready status requires less development effort, in >> my view. >> >> But there is that insane Foundry price tag... >> >> I am curious to hear from others, because my exposure to Houdini is >> admittedly limited. >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 8:45 AM Jonathan Moore <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I have a client (an advertising network with their own production >>> facilities) that currently have a pipeline involving Maya and Houdini with >>> RenderMan and Redshift as rendering options. There's a smattering of Max >>> and Modo for asset creation but that's beyond the scope of my enquiry. >>> >>> We're currently going through the process of deciding whether Katana >>> would be an effective tool to add to their pipeline as their are moving >>> into longer form branded content as well as their existing advertising >>> output. >>> >>> I have a major cognitive bias going into this assessment that Houdini >>> can be used for Katana style deferred rendering workflows as well as it's >>> FX bread and butter. Introducing Katana will come at a considerable cost so >>> I'm wondering what others think and feel about Katana, particularly if >>> they've already gone through a similar thought process. It doesn't matter >>> whether you use Katana in you pipeline (or have used it in the past) I'm >>> just looking for any considered views ref Katana benefits. >>> >>> And Jordi, if you're reading this, I would love your take on Houdini as >>> a lookdev/lighting toolset as I understand that's exactly how you use it at >>> Framestore. >>> >>> Funnily enough, the more deeply I research this, the more I'm reminded >>> how ahead of the game the Softimage team were. The whole models workflow >>> (and underlying philosophy) was incredibly flexible as well as powerful. >>> Sure it had some gnarly aspects much like any referencing system (from what >>> I hear, Katana it littered with these referencing cul-de-sac's too). >>> >>> My internal bias towards Houdini is that is has so many strengths with >>> regard to deferred procedural loading, packed disc primitives etc etc, and >>> to be frank, shading networks in Katana suck right now. Plus Houdini pretty >>> much invented the nodal shading game with VOPs. >>> >>> As a positive for Katana, I'm really impressed with the 3delight >>> integration, and it's promise of seamless a seamless pipe with Maya (a >>> necessary evil not a preferred choice). I've always had a soft spot for >>> 3delight and the new OSL driven, artist centric presentation layer/UX is >>> something that connects with my own thoughts about delivering flexible >>> rendering power without the need to have all the wiring on show. >>> >>> Apologies for the lengthy post. I'm hopping that one or two of you have >>> gone through similar considerations as you've gradually planned your move >>> away from Soft. >>> >>> As ever, thanks in advance. >>> >>> jm >>> ------ >>> Softimage Mailing List. >>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to [email protected] >>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm. >> >> ------ >> Softimage Mailing List. >> To unsubscribe, send a mail to [email protected] >> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm. > > ------ > Softimage Mailing List. > To unsubscribe, send a mail to [email protected] > with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
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