Konrad,

> It is in my opinion useful, but only because it is simpler. The real
> benefit will only show up once the discovery method is clear.

Maybe, but isn't the first question whether this approach is
preferable to either a full SAM implementation, or to
draft-lee-softwire-6rd-udp? I'm pretty confident a discovery
method can be devised.

Regards
   Brian

On 2010-06-10 01:01, Konrad Rosenbaum wrote:
> On Wed, June 9, 2010 11:27, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 2010-06-08 23:30, Konrad Rosenbaum wrote:
>>> On Mon, June 7, 2010 09:41, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>> This is another approach to stateless tunnels across subscriber NATs.
>>> There is of course the big question of how to discover a SAMPLE server.
>>> I
>>> doubt they would get any use if the user needed to enter anything in
>>> his/her configuration.
>> Well, that depends on the customer, but in general I think it needs to be
>> a one-click operation.
> 
> Actually, for Joe-Average-User it should be zero-click. Teredo only gets
> used because it is on per default and requires no configuration
> whatsoever.
> 
>> At the moment we say
>>
>>   "The SAMPLE interface in the host MUST be configured with the IPv4
>>    address and UDP listener port number of the SAMPLE server."
> 
>>From the users perspective this makes it more complicated than Teredo.
>>From an implementers perspective it makes yet another tunnel protocol.
> 
> Only from a network and security perspective it has some limited merit,
> since it is somewhat simpler than teredo.
> 
>> There are various ways of automating that, so maybe we can defer the
>> discussion until we know whether the method is useful.
> 
> It is in my opinion useful, but only because it is simpler. The real
> benefit will only show up once the discovery method is clear.
> 
> [cut]
>>> Maybe a centralized registry?
>> Or SLP. Or an IPv4 DHCP option.
> 
> Neither is very useful, since they are both designed to work on the LAN.
> We need a protocol that can easily cross the NAT box without changing it.
> So:
> 
> * no multicast (SLP)
> * no broadcast (DHCPv4)
> * no use of private addresses as target IP
> * no DNS magic(*)(**)
> 
> (*)some NATs drop what they call "unknown query type" packets
> (**)some users use alternative DNS servers as forwarders, which means any
> heuristic to find out where you are will fail for them
> 
> That leaves either a very simple request via TCP or via UDP - maybe as
> some kind of directory lookup.
> 
>>> Also I would change the address format:
> [cut]
>> Well, the draft uses as closely as possible the Teredo format. Also
>> we need to respect the u/g bit, which in your proposal means stuffing
>> 2 bits into the V4ADDR field (more comments below). I'm not sure this
>> is worthwhile to avoid hairpinning.
> 
> I see.
> 
> 
>     Konrad
> 
> 
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