>>So "right thing to do" is here defined as "what Patrice M. Coles
>>wants"?
>
> No.  Neither is it defined as "what Seth Breidbart wants" nor as
> "people who create blocklists don't care about what you like".  My
> definition would involve working toward accomplishing a goal rather
> than just doing things with complete disregard for the damage they
> cause to innocent victims who had *nothing to do* with spamming.

It is arguable that someone who *pays money to* a *spam-friendly ISP*
is a completely "innocent victim" who has "nothing to do" with
spamming.

>>The ISP is allowed to make a contract prohibiting spam.  How is the
>>law not being in effect?
>
> Saying that you can't spam someone and proving that you are and
> getting them legally off your network involve very different levels
> of work.

Many ISPs have no trouble doing that.  The ones who aren't kicking off
spammers ought to be encouraged to do so.

>  Some ISPs (including Bellsouth) say they prohibit spam.  The
>  problem is that they recognize that everything isn't just "Yes,
>  you're spamming from my subnet so I'm just going to refuse to
>  service anyone on the whole subnet and anyone who wasn't really
>  spamming will just be victimized any way regardless of whether they
>  had anything to do with it or not."

I would argue that someone who is paying a spam-friendly ISP isn't
someone who can claim they "have nothing to do with it".

>  They have a greater responsiblilty to their customers than to the
>  blocklisters who are willing to victimize people who had nothing to
>  do with the situation just because it's too cumbersome to be a
>  little more conscientious about it.

Maybe they should show some responsibility to their non-spamming
customers, and cut off their spammers.  But while they choose not to
do so, somebody else chooses not to accept any email from them as a
result.

>>I don't understand what you're trying to say here.  Are you suggesting
>>that a particular business model be legislated?
>
> No, I'm suggesting that we start by making spam illegal and put
> punishments in place for those who spam as well as those who
> knowingly allow continued spamming.

I didn't see anybody arguing against that.  However, it has nothing to
do with blocklists (or other actions taken in the years prior to such
legislation passing).

>>In any case, what happens when other countries have other laws?
>
> We address it the same way we do  everything else.  Try to make them
> aware of the problems and get them to address them as well.

In other words, the problem with _never_ be fully solved by
legislation.

>>There would still have to be enforcement.
>
> Yes, that's the same with any law.  That's the way our government is
> set up.

Some laws are self-enforcing (that is, the victim gets statutory
damages).  That's how fax spam was pretty much stopped.

>>Most ISPs already prohibit spamming.
>
> But this clearly hasn't resolved the problem, so obviously something
> else is needed.

Blocking the rest of the ISPs will help, but you don't seem to like
that idea.

>>It doesn't appear to be cost-prohibitive for ISPs ranging from very
>>small (e.g. Panix) to very large (e.g. AOL) to prohibit spamming.
>
> Except that since we still have a spam problem, it doesn't appear to
> be cost-prohibitive for ISPs to *ineffecitvely* prohibit spamming.

Panix effectively prohibits spamming.  AOL effectively prohibits
spamming.  Therefore, it's possible.

Some ISPs _choose_ not to effectively prohibit spamming.  Other ISPs
_choose_ not to accept email from those ISPs.

Seth



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