I wondered how long it would be before this hit the list. About twenty years ago I went to do a T.I. on a five story building in a suburb of Seattle. IAt first I couldn't make heads or tails of the system. The building engineer knew how to work it so while he was explaining it he also was telling me its history. According to him this building system (tri-water) was installed as a test bed before committing to 75 stories of Columbia Tower. During the T.I. every head I pulled was full of scale. I brought this to the engineer's attention so he could inform the owner and joked about not going in the big black box. Since then I've wondered when this would begin. Mike, comimg to the meeting Tuesday?
On 5/2/07, Steve Leyton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The point of interface is black pipe, so any pipe fitter will do. What happens downstream of the heat pumps is somebody else's business ... Steve Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 1:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing? Do you have to be a sprinkler contractor to work on the HVAC or a duct man to work on the sprinklers in this building? Cliff Fire Design, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing? There were supposed to be filters at the cooling tower, and theoretically this design would be LESS subject to MIC and adulteration. But in a high-rise, we used one standpipe for supply and another for return, and since they were VERY large diameter I suppose anything's possible. Picture the cooling tower on the roof and the fire pump below - the standpipe sizes were "backward scheduled" because of velocity limits on the HVAC side. The buildings we did here had 8" at the top and 4" at the base ... The long-term problems with these systems, both high-rise and non, was leaks. Leaks at the valves, leaks here, there and everywhere, and the night-only work hours just added to the pain. Steve Leyton PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 12:50 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing? Hmmmm, a "special one of a kind system", was this in the 1985 edition of NFPA 13? The oldest I've got at the office is '89, my '87 is at the house (that way the ME's here won't use it anymore, LOL) But this type system was in the '89. Often on these type of systems it may take years before this type of deterioration becomes evident. But the thing is, for circulating hvac systems we don't run hot or chilled water through black steel piping without some sort of chemical treatment. It sounds like the condition of this system is from lack of proper treatment and maintenance along with some installation/design errors. But the arm-overs are not the big issue since in a lot of if not most systems being served by a treated municipal water supply, you don't need to use arm-overs, might still be a good idea but arm-overs are generally reserved for raw water systems. Were there adequate flushing connections, were they used if present, who inspected the systems and to what level of detail is what I'd be asking. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael M. Fitz Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:28 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing? I can't respond to the number of high-rise buildings that aren't sprinklered in Seattle........Rich? According to the information I was given, there were two buildings designed for a local developer that used a combined HVAC and sprinkler system. Unfortunately, pendant sprinklers were used in some locations along with the connections from the bottom of the pipe. Guess where the debris ends up? I was shown two heads, both of which were not plugged or obstructed in any way that had me concerned. I was led to believe that there were a substantial number of heads that were totally plugged and that is the reason for the major "maintenance". The "maintenance" procedures I have seen in photographs or was told about involved tapping the top of the pipe where there was access or from the side of the main or branch. As an engineer, I was impressed with the condition of the pipes as old as they were. I suspect this is because there was water treatment for the HVAC usage. Michael At 11:52 AM 5/2/2007, you wrote: >I would be interested to know how many high-rise buildings there are in >the town - that don't have sprinklers at all. Hmmmmmm? > >Terri Simmons Leyton >PROTECTION DESIGN & CONSULTING >Ph: 858-751-2930 >Fax: 858-751-2933 >Cell: 619-871-8450 > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod >DiBona >Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 11:49 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: So what's this return bend thing? > >The craftsman was concerned with the integrity of the sprinkler system >because the buliding had been mentioned as a prime terrorist target. >That's interesting. > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jamie >Seidl >Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 12:11 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: So what's this return bend thing? Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.I. MDE Inc. 700 South Industrial Way Seattle, WA 98108 Main 206-622-2007 Direct 206-957-2140 Fax 206-622-2248 Home Office 360-427-2751 Cell 206-321-1804 www.mde.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
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