We have an AHJ here who has been elevated to deity status by every spineless architect, engineer, and owner that bends to his every whim and wish. He is generally very knowledgeable, but not always correct, and does not appreciate having his knowledge questioned. He refused to even look at a formal interpretation from the ICC because he, "don't know where those people get their ideas."! He is an AHJ for state-owned or state-controlled properties and has cost taxpayers many millions of dollars for things like student computer centers designed to OH2 because computers have plastic cases, hazardous exhaust systems for rooms where ounces of cleaning agents will be used, and a multitude of other "requirements".
Paul J. Pinigis, P.E. Chief Life Safety Engineer -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:07 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Telling an AHJ "No" ? I note from this thread and many others on the subject of what to do when the AHJ requires things that are beyond their authority, along with a telecon I had earlier this week, that it happens far more often than it should, and there's a wide variance on how we sprinkler guys handle it. We're all aware that staying current on the codes- NFPA and Building- is more than a full-time job, and most would agree that a large part of the membership benefit of AFSA and other associations is assistance in keeping up with those changes, advance notice of what's in the pipeline, and naturally, the AFSA's Informal Interpretations. If it is difficult for us to stay atop of just the FP part of this, and the AHJs we deal with often lack our breadth of experience, intimate code knowledge, and they often have handicap and egress requirements upon which they also must remain current- so it is not a surprise that we're often saddled with sorting out valid corrections from hearsay learned in a seminar and misapplied. Compounding this is the tenuous adversarial positions we may end up in if we tell the AHJ he's wrong, and/or stand up for the rights of the Owner and/or our own. We must deal with this guy whenever we're in his jurisdiction, and there's no end to the things an AHJ can do to make our lives difficult. So many of us simply roll over and if its not a lot of money, we give in. While this avoids continuation of a problem on the first job, where schedule demands may point to rolling over since no time exists to "fight", it sets a dangerous precedent that the AHJ will expect you to follow in the future. In one jurisdiction, we were asked when we were planning on doing our "bucket test" on a 13R installation. I pointed out that this was a 13D requirement stemming from the possible need to verify the "calc-light" option in 13D, but that the calcs run for 13R met a higher standard of care and therefore the code doesn't require a bucket test in 13R. He replied our competitors all do it. And I responded that that's their option, I'd rather educate you on what you're asking for- and he said if its not a requirement of 13R, you don't need to do it. So we saved some labor hours on each job there, and I trust our competitors no longer have to do it either (at least those that bother to read this!). But there was no argument, no lines drawn in the sand, just an explanation of where and what the requirement was, and why it didn't apply where he was trying to apply it. This was made far easier from the AHJ's recognition of his own limited knowledge, and his familiarity with my code knowledge- exhibited in the explanation of not only what the code said, but explaining why. The larger problems arise when we encounter what many of us refer to as the "badge-heavy" AHJ who believes he's been anointed from on high, and therefore his proclamations are supreme. Having encountered some of these, I can understand a second type of response to the AHJ asking for more than he's entitled to- dump it in the Owner (or GC's) lap and ask if they want to fight or give it to him. I don't want to know how much money has been wasted on pacifying the clueless. This doesn't end the war, it just lets him win the battle and have precedent set that he gets his own way, when he really needs to have someone explain what local amendments are, how they are obtained, and without them, you have the base building code. The more we cave in to excessive demands, the longer the problem will persist. glc -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:22 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Check valve in 13D system I second Ron's thoughts. Guys, I cite chapter and verse. You may not like reading it or worse doing it but hey its in the code. I'll entertain a variation if you have a better mousetrap but you gotta do the homework. Its pretty simple. Have the inspector cite it. John Drucker (AHJ) -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Mack Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Check valve in 13D system Sunny (well actually rainy lately) AZ. It is using a 13D riser assembly from one of the major manufacturer's and the AHJ is saying NO WAY!!!!!!! You got me on this one! I got this relayed from the field superintendant. The AHJ states it is in the plumbing code somewhere and he has been trying to get the manufacturer's to get it out of the those devices for years. Again, the reasoning is coming through another person so I don't know exactly what the AHJ said, but basically, the riser is being removed and the swing check put in. 2 fire inspectors and then the main boss says it has to come out and only a swing check is acceptable. _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
