Ron,
I don't know which "FM Rep" you talked to, but the issue with large drop
sprinklers had nothing to do with "calibrating the calorimeter". The
calorimeter doesn't even use sprinklers. The problem arose when
repeating full-scale tests in the new test facility did not produce the
same results as the original tests in the old facility.
Joe
Ron Greenman wrote:
This may sound a bit off topic but bear with me. Remember when FM was
questioning large drop head performance? What started the concern was
that as they were calibrating their new calorimeter against their old
calorimeter they found that large drops were not performing the same
as they'd done during the initial testing leading to their listing.
Remember that LDs were kind of the ESFRs d'jour of their time and so
at the edge of technology and performance. On talking to an FM rep a
few months back they (FM guys) were speculating that the drop in
performance might be due to new coatings on the kraft paper that their
standard boxes were now being made of. This was just speculation at
the time and I don't know if the theory has been proven or dis-proven
but the point is that changes in one industry's processes can have
repercussions on another's. Perhaps the wetting agents in your
favorite brand of anti-freeze have changed and are now wetter than
before. Just speculation but why do some systems leak and others don't
and why are the leakers usually the newer ones (this question has come
up before on this list)? I don't have an answer beyond this guessing
or inductive reasoning (beware!), but I have seen a system recently
that was older, had had anti-freeze in it, hadn't leaked previously,
had been modified with new anti-freeze added, and then began leaking
all over. Other reasons with just as much definitive research could
be that they leak because of global warming, sunspots, magic or
anything else I can imagine. All I'm sure of is that wetting agents
are prevalent in anti-freeze.
On Feb 1, 2008 2:55 PM, David M. Canham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have done a lot of anti freeze system in the last 30 years and only
recently has this been coming up, is something different about the anti
freeze? Is there any documented testing that has been published?
David Canham
Fire Systems Solitions
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 4:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Anti freeze leaking
Most, if not all, anti-freezes used in fire protection have wetting
agents in them. This is like detergent added to water and breaks down
surface tension. Although the solution will seem more viscose the
individual molecules will be more slippery and be better able to
escape.
On Feb 1, 2008 11:45 AM, Rod DiBona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dave,
I was told by our labor sup some time ago that we were having the same
problem. I know the topic of viscosity came up. Not sure if that is
valid or not as it seems that water would have a "low" viscosity and it
doesn't seem that a water antifreeze mix would be lower as it seems that
this should be thicker....but none the less our guys are convinced that
the antifreeze mixture leaks where water doesn't....sooo we have
implemented a policy of teflon tape and pipe dope for for all threaded
pipe with antifreeze. I have been told that this has solved our
problems. Time will tell.
Rod DiBona
Vice President
Rapid Fire Protection
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
605-348-2342 ph
605-391-3553 cell
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David M.
Canham
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Anti freeze leaking
It's steel and with the expansion chamber and backflow no hole is
required.
There has not been any pressure build-up noticed.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew
J.
Willis
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Anti freeze leaking
We can assume then it is properly sized....? How about a hole in the
check valve (if provided)? Is this a steel or plastic job? If this is
plastic, what kind of anti-freeze?
R/
Matt
Matthew J. Willis
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC.
1160 McKenzie Rd.
PO Box 877
Cantonment, FL. 32533
850-937-1850 Voice
850-937-1852 Facsimile
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >-----Original Message-----
----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
----- >Behalf Of David M. Canham
----- >Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:27 AM
----- >To: [email protected]
----- >Subject: RE: Anti freeze leaking
----- >
----- >Yes and expansion chamber as well
----- >
----- >-----Original Message-----
----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
----- >Behalf Of Matthew J.
----- >Willis
----- >Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:52 AM
----- >To: [email protected]
----- >Subject: RE: Anti freeze leaking
----- >
----- >Is there a backflow involved for this system???
----- >
----- >Matt
----- >
----- >Matthew J. Willis
----- >Living Water Fire Protection, LLC.
----- >1160 McKenzie Rd.
----- >PO Box 877
----- >Cantonment, FL. 32533
----- >850-937-1850 Voice
----- >850-937-1852 Facsimile
----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >
----- >
----- >----- >-----Original Message-----
----- >----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- >----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
----- >----- >Behalf Of David M. Canham
----- >----- >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 10:28 PM
----- >----- >To: [email protected]
----- >----- >Subject: RE: Anti freeze leaking
----- >----- >
----- >----- >A colleague of mine was complaining about anti freeze on
----- >----- >a job claiming the system had passed its 200 PSI test
----- >----- >with not issues but when filled with anti freeze there
----- >----- >were multiple leaks. He lead me to believe this was
----- >----- >happening a lot. I had not run into it and was
----- >----- >wondering if others had been having a problem.
----- >----- >Dave Canham
----- >----- >Fire Systems Solutions
----- >----- >15 Sayles Ave, Lincoln, RI 02865
----- >----- >
----- >----- >
----- >----- >_______________________________________________
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at home....
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