I got this on my Blackberry last night as I was headed to a
basketball game and have been chomping at the bit to respond, event
though I'm not a contractor.
Since I play both sides of the court, I try to take my experience
from preparing shop drawings and try to apply it to my projects where
I am specifying engineer.
1) This is also known as design-build. Grossly over-used concept
(earlier this year I got a call for a design-build job for rack
storage of flammable liquids)
2) Exceedingly helpful information as a designer. I try to include in
my bid packages.
3) A necessity.
4) All of that detail may not be necessary, but it is helpful.
However, water supply availability and a review to see if it can
provide the demand without a pump is mandatory. This could lead to
#9, if the occupancy demands it.
5) Helpful, but not mandatory, unless the jurisdiction has special
requirements that deviate for state or model codes. Then it needs to be there.
6) Helpful, but not necessary, unless the system will be hooked up to
other than a standard central station and/or local connection.
7) Required if penetrations are going to be in specific locations
where penetrations need to be included in fabrication of structural components.
8) Usually useless, except for possibly designating what type of head
will go where.
9) This is the best in terms of information and may be required by
some jurisdictions for permit purposes. I tend to do a lot of these
for architect/owner clients. The caveat is that the designer still
has to re-draw everything because they are never available in a
format that could be directly integrated into a CAD system. Either
they were drawn in something non transferable or they will not be
released for liability reasons.
10) Never seen one and would be suspect of one that is. Most would
require too much input and cooperation for most of the projects I
see, given the cast of characters involved (I primarily do small and
medium sized, up to about 1400 heads). Apparently some of our
compatriots with the larger firms get that and maybe it does work
well. Just never make it to my world.
I think my conclusion is that the nature of each project determines
what works best. There are some items which should be mandatory
(design criteria, water supply info and evaluation, etc.) and others
dependent on the complexity of th project and requirements of the
local jurisdiction.
Great question, Steve.
At 04:21 PM 11/12/2008, you wrote:
Since we're on the topic of contract documents, what do the contractors out
there want to see as an ideal level of detail from the PE on plans and
specs? I'll throw out some examples based on what I have seen ranging from
the minimum (which puts the entire design onus on the contractor) to the
maximum (full-blown layout).
1) No design docs - just "design per NFPA 13, 16, 20, 24, etc."
2) Hazard classifications of all areas within the building including
densities to be used, size of remote area, etc. - including design criteria
for special situations like dry storage of boats, special hazards, and other
storage scenarios
3) System type specified - wet, dry, antifreeze, etc.
4) Water supply totally worked out including a coordinated underground
design, backflow preventer location and type, and recent flow test info
5) Code references identified for sources of requirements from local
building codes and fire codes
6) Fire alarm system interface details
7) Structural coordination details such as locations of mains or
standpipes will need to penetrate floors or firewalls
8) Partial layout - such as the location of just mains, or just heads,
or just some system components that are critical to the owner or architect
9) Full blown layout and hydraulic calcs (similar to what white paper
level of detail)
10) Full blown layout plus stocklisting - contractor just fabricates
components and assemblies and entire design responsibility is on the
engineer
In an ideal world, where every engineer and contractor had NICET 4 knowledge
and experience, what would be the ideal level of detail for you as
contractors? Does too much information restrict your ability to be creative
and bid competitively, or would it be better to have completely engineered
drawings to fabricate and install from. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks,
Steve Kowkabany, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC
616 Davis Street
Neptune Beach, FL 32266
904-652-4200 Phone
904-212-0868 Fax
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080
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