George wrote; "It drops us outside the hotel in a fenced enclosure where we can't get more than 10' from the building."
2006 IBC/NJ 1024.6 Access to a public way. The exit discharge shall provide a direct and unobstructed access to a public way. Exception: Where access to a public way cannot be provided, a safe dispersal area shall be provided where all of the following are met: 1. The area shall be of a size to accommodate at least 5 square feet (0.28 m2) for each person. 2. The area shall be located on the same lot at least 50 feet (15 240 mm) away from the building requiring egress. 3. The area shall be permanently maintained and identified as a safe dispersal area. 4. The area shall be provided with a safe and unobstructed path of travel from the building. Name the town (off list of course) and I'll send you the name of the fire marshal, building and fire subcode officials. Or if you so choose I'll send this to them myself. John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector New Jersey PS, Steve and Terry, good idea avoid the main exit, use a secondary exit (remember what the flight attendant always tells you) However find comfort that NJ has increased the main exit capacity requirements from 50% to 66.66% of total occupant load for A-2 nightclubs amongst other fire safety requirements. As for overcrowds, blocked exits and the like a call to the FM's usually results in evacuation of the premises and closure where necessary. In our jurisdiction the owners are well aware of this and take the time to police there establishments knowing well the cost of not doing so. PSS, Partially agree on Hose Valves in stairways. Cook County is a prime example, deployment of the hose line onto the fire floor means a breached opening protective, i.e. the stairway door is ajar by the hose line. What's the solution ? Hose valves on the fire floor ?, that means we have to open the door, go onto the floor and attempt to setup and hookup without the protection of a charged line. The solution may be protected smoke tight corridors between the stair and the floor, think of it like an airlock. The hose valve is located in the corridor. Firefighters come up the stair, into the corridor, make their connection on the fire floor and deploy. The corridor allows them enough space to stretch out the charged hoseline. The stairways integrity is maintained. John Drucker Firefighter Fire Protection Subcode Official Red Bank, NJ Safe Buildings Save Lives ! -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 3:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: side by side standpipes I'd have paid for you and T's tix to witness that dialogue! Well, in a previous economy I would have.... We were up in N jersey for an annual FA guy's bash for customers and AHJs. 4 AM the FA goes off in the hotel, we exit at measured pace (spkrs in hotel, but not QR) thru nearest stair (required one, I'm sure). It drops us outside the hotel in a fenced enclosure where we can't get more than 10' from the building. Now I point out that we're only looking at a blank masonry wall facing us, so there's limited exposure to a fire in the building, and I know I can throw her over the fence and get over it myself if we had to- but we go back in to the lobby with the other assembled guests (quite a fashion show) and await the FD's arrival when we'll be kicked out into the cold while the FD does a walk thru to confirm no fire, FD arrives and the incident commander no sooner is in the building a minute before red is in his face griping about our being trapped outside. I'm sure this is just what thihs guy wants when responding to a nuisance alarm at 4 AM a week or two before Christmas....but believe me, the point was made. glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: side by side standpipes That's where you slip up a bit; responders are going to use designated fire department access to enter the building. Field studies have shown time and time again that in a panic, people will generally try to exit through the same doors they used to gain entry to a building or space. But responders are trained to use designated ingress routes, in part to avoid swimming upstream of all the folks running out of the atrium ... For what it's worth, my wife is the most proactive advance person I have ever seen - even more than FPO's. There isn't a place we go that she doesn't immediately take inventory of the exits, whether signs are lit properly and whether they're obstructed. We were at a concert in a nightclub type venue about 5 years ago - a name act in a small club, so it was sardine-packed. We were at the stage right side of the crowd and noticed the side exit completely blocked by dirty table linen bags. Like, completely. We told the bouncer who was minding that corridor and he didn't even grunt, so I went and found the manager who wasn't impressed either. I told the manager that I was a fire protection guy and if he didn't clear the corridor I would call the fire marshal directly on his cell phone (a bluff - didn't have the FM's cell number) and tell him to send over the cavalry and shut down the show. We certainly felt better standing at the head of a freshly cleaned corridor that led to an identified fire exit. I hope I never have to exit in a panic, but if I do I'm using the nearest exit, whether or not it's the door I came in through ... Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: side by side standpipes If nobody is using it, who is leaving and entering? In a highrise, I agree, but in an open atria building, it doesn't make sense. Everyone, including first responders (at least initially) are going to be entering and exiting through the public areas. Is the enclosed stairway any more than a receptacle for the standpipe on that situation? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Leyton" <[email protected]> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:42:24 To: <[email protected]> Subject: RE: side by side standpipes It does NOT matter what guests and occupants do whilst egressing; the stairs are required to be protected for the safety of those leaving and also those entering a building, i.e. responders. That's why designers can have all the escalators and convenience stairs they want, but still have to provide a code-prescribed complement of exit stairs that are protected by fire-resistive construction. And furthermore, why we place standpipe equipment within those protected enclosures. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: side by side standpipes However, they are going to be used as primary egress by patrons of the mall because that is the exit they are familiar with. Most enclosed stairways in this type of building are sufficiently well hidden so they will not be used because they can't be found. Not counting escalators (and fixed stairs in the mall area) for egress makes no sense. Also, when the FD responds to a fire, are they going for the stair towers or the main mall space? (Same could be said for buildings with large open atria, such as CNN Center.) BTW, who makes the decision which stairways are required and which are "convenience"? How do you choose? At 08:04 PM 3/25/2009, you wrote: >Nope. Escalators are a convenience appliance so no standpipes required >at escalator landings. They don't count for squat in the egress plan >and are pretty much always open ... > >Steve Leyton >Protection Design & Consulting >San Diego, CA > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd >Williams >Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:36 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: side by side standpipes > >So if you have a 4-story mall with escalators, you have to put a >standpipe on each of these as well? > >At 07:07 PM 3/25/2009, you wrote: > >ignoring convenient stairs as already addressed, it I certainly would > >not be the one ATTEMPTING to argue just because the design added more > >exits than minimally required I can leave out standpipes just because > >of such loose wording. IF you provide extra exits they all are > >treated as full fledge exits and get all the bells and whistles of the > >other exits. There is room to dance but I suggest to my members to > >keep their butts in the chairs until a better song starts. > > > >Roland > > > >On Mar 25, 2009, at 3:36 PM, Chris Cahill wrote: > > > > > Dude, the standard is clear in every required exit stair. Even the > > > IFC uses > > > similar language. If it ain't required you don't need a standpipe. > > > As a FF > > > I of course think that would be bad design as I would have no idea > > > when the > > > building is on fire which stairs are required and which aren't. > > > Thus I > > > wouldn't know where to find standpipes. As an FPE I agree with > > > myself the > > > FF. Further I'd walk from a job (in a normal economy) where the > > > standpipes > > > weren't in every stair leading to an egress. In this economy I'd > > > certainly > > > write lotsa CYA letters for the only job we would have. (Sorry I do > > > need to > > > eat). As a former AHJ I'd fight for every stair until the judge > > > overruled. > > > My only case lost as AHJ was over an exterior standpipe for a > > > Cathedral > > > copper reroofing job where the Chief wanted a standpipe to reach the > > > top > > > (over 250' above grade no access from the inside). Tactically the > > > Chief was > > > right but the City Council sided with God's representative. Once >that > > > happened the City couldn't proceed to a judge. I assume I'm going > > > to Hell > > > anyway so arguing against God really didn't chance anything. > > > > > > Now I can't think of a place where a stair was there but not > > > required, but > > > it is certainly theoretically possible. (Assuming something can be > > > "certainly theoretical") Closest comes to mind is a convenience >stair > > > connecting several floors. Some might go to street some might not. > > > > > > In a legal contest the required part is going to be key if all the > > > experts > > > like the architect show up and have all the exiting calc's done > > > showing the > > > stair in question is not required. My money is on the NFPA committee > > > believes all stairs get standpipes but that is not what they wrote - > > > Steve..... > > > > > > > > > In a legal deposition (or worse on cross in front of the judge) on > > > the side > > > of the standpipe how are you going to answer the questions along the > > > line of > > > > > > > > > Mr. Huggins have you reviewed the Architects exiting analysis? > > > > > > Assuming you had the follow up is - > > > > > > Mr. Huggins is there anything wrong with the analysis as it applies > > > to the > > > minimum requirements of the Code? > > > > > > Assuming there wasn't - > > > > > > Mr. Huggins does the analysis show the stair in question is >required? > > > > > > And you wouldn't have gotten this far if it was required - > > > > > > Does the IFC and NFPA 14 refer to standpipes in required stairs? > > > > > > You really are in a corner to say yes - > > > > > > And finally Mr. Huggins what does the LAW say about non-required > > > stairs? > > > > > > I'd guess you'd respond "nothing, but...." > > > > > > And your counsel will have no choice but to drop the matter. > > > > > > I try to use my powers for good so let's change the IFC and NFPA 14 >to > > > change this loop hole. Might be as simple as dropping the word > > > required. > > > > > > Now I don't know if Greg's stairs are required or not. I tend to > > > think they > > > are required so really the discussion is mute but it does reveal a > > > flaw in > > > the code that until now I had not thought of. > > > > > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > > > Fire Protection Engineer > > > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > > > > > 763-658-4483 > > > 763-658-4921 fax > > > > > > Email: [email protected] > > > > > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >Roland > > > Huggins > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:36 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: side by side standpipes > > > > > > Just because the design exceeds the minimum number of exits needed >to > > > meet the travel distance does NOT allow you to say the extra exit is > > > not REQUIRED so no standpipe in it. If it is an actual stairway >exit, > > > it is considered required. > > > > > > Roland > > > > > > On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Greg McGahan wrote: > > > > > >> This is an unusual case - it is not for volume or congestion - >there > > >> are 4 stairs, (2 sets) within 50-60 feet of each other in an > > >> amusement building. You pay to go up but you get to come down for > > >> free. > > >> > > >> My thoughts were since the hose valves are serving the same area it > > >> is overkill to calc 1,000 gpm at an elevation of only 50' - manual > > >> wet should be allowed per law, but the EOR says auto is what he > > >> wants, serving about 14,000 sqft per floor. > > >> > > >> But Ok, I got what I needed - thanks. > > >> > > >> Greg McGahan > > >> Operations Manager > > >> > > >> Living Water Fire Protection > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >Todd G. Williams, PE >Fire Protection Design/Consulting >Stonington, Connecticut >www.fpdc.com >860.535.2080 >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
