There is probably less detail because CPVC is usually field cut and steel is (can be) pre-fab. That being said, they should meet the requirements of chapter 14, whatever the material. Another issue is that CPVC systems tend to go into stick-built residential buildings. The framing of these is frequently not known until after they are constructed and changes need to be made to adapt. (I did a condo complex a few years back with 3 "typical" buildings. Each building was done by a different framing contractor and the style was different enough that the buildings were no longer typical)
At 11:02 AM 3/26/2009, you wrote: >Along that same line: > >Why is the quality of "plastic" drawings always less than "steel" >drawings? I always fought with my bosses over this. NFPA Chapter 14 >(2002, Edition) makes has no different requirement for the two. >Should I disapprove plastic drawings (think - cocktail napkins) that >do not fulfill the requirements of Chapter 14? > >As for the as-built question: Don't send me any, I don't have the >room or the time to deal with them. >"Don't want 'em, Don't need 'em, Got no use for 'em" > >David Autry >Plans Examiner >Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office >246 S. 14th Street >Lincoln, NE 68508 >402-471-9659 >402-471-3118 fax >www.sfm.ne.gov > >** Note new email address: [email protected] > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >[email protected] >Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:46 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > >I'm not sure I understand. What part of NFPA 13 says that you don't >have to leave behind accurate system documentation? Yes, it seems to me >there are a few steps in this process, and sometimes it's inconvenient >and time consuming to take all those steps, but, again, where does it >say you leave behind something that doesn't match what you installed, >including the AHJ approval? > >Maybe I'll turn this around and ask what items on the NFPA 13 working >drawing / hydraulic calc lists have to be correct, and what items can be >approximate and maybe corrected later on another set of documents called >"as-builts", but only if you find a requirement to submit as-builts? > >Bill Brooks > >William N. Brooks, P.E. >Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. >372 Wilett Drive >Severna Park, MD 21146 >410-544-3620 Phone >410-544-3032 FAX >412-400-6528 Cell > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings >From: <[email protected]> >Date: Thu, March 26, 2009 10:12 am >To: <[email protected]> > >You got it bucko! Con sarnt contraktors always trying to cheat the >system out of its due! It's downright Un-American to not follow the >plan, people got ta eat ya know! ;) > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection Specialist >Mechanical Department >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >Direct - 864.599.4102 >Fax - 864.599.8439 >[email protected] >http://www.ch2m.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fletcher, >Ron >Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 10:03 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > >So we should submit preliminary plans and get them permitted (A.22.1), >submit working plans and get them approved (22.1.1 & A.22.1), get the >permission of the AHJ every time we deviate from the approved working >plan (22.1.2) and after all our deviations are approved we should submit >the "corrected working plans" (Bill Brooks) for approval? > >Ron Fletcher >Aero Automatic Sprinkler >21605 N. Central Ave >Phoenix, AZ 85024 >P: 623.580.7836 >F: 623.434.3420 >C: 602.763.4160 > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George >Church >Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:49 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > >Then there's the contractual thing, where they make minor changes like >the ceiling guy turns the pattern 90* or shifts it, but they don't want >to pay you to make the change. Why should we? > >Glc >Under 2002 #13 still. > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd >Williams >Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:01 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > >Reality check. "As-builts" are a separate document. They are usually >generated from the original design drawing and the fitter's field notes >(if he kept them). As to an as-built being exact - good luck. >Contractors may keep some notes on what they change, but they are hardly >an EXACT duplicate of what is installed (and the assumption is that the >designer has access to them). Consequently, as-built drawings at best >give you an idea of major changes (main and sprinkler locations) but are >far from perfect. There is not enough money or time in any design job >for the designer to go out and map out every piece of pipe installed. >"If pipe lengths and fittings have changed..."? Outside of number of >heads, what else would change? So every job would have to be re-calced. >Also, if we have to wait for AHJ approval before any changes are made >(22.1.2), nothing will ever get finished. In a perfect world, you are >right, but this ain't a perfect world. > > >At 07:34 PM 3/25/2009, you wrote: > >I think the "as-built" term is a commonly used misnomer, somehow > >distinguishing the document used to install a system from some "extra" > >document you leave behind for the owner to use later. The proper term > >for "as-built" should be "corrected working plan" representing the > >completion of something that's required from the beginning. I'm not > >saying the as-built has to be cadded up like the original. NFPA 13 is > >silent on this. However, the drawing left behind has to be EXACTLY >what > >is installed, and that redlined drawing has to have the AHJ approval in > >some manner (22.1.2). If pipe lengths or fittings have changed, then > >"corrected hydraulic calculations" are also required. Otherwise the > >installer has been paid but hasn't completed the job. > > > >Perhaps our frequent AHJ contributors could weigh in on this one as > >well. > > > >Bill Brooks > > > >William N. Brooks, P.E. > >Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. > >372 Wilett Drive > >Severna Park, MD 21146 > >410-544-3620 Phone > >410-544-3032 FAX > >412-400-6528 Cell > > > >-------- Original Message -------- > >Subject: RE: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > >From: "larryshulman" <[email protected]> > >Date: Wed, March 25, 2009 6:11 pm > >To: <[email protected]> > > > >Working plans are for the installation phase, while the "as-built" set > >is intended for use following the installation. That's why NFPA 13 is > >silent on the as-built requirement but it appears in NFPA 25. > > > >I agree this appears somewhat awkward, but I suppose there's logic in > >there somewhere. When you find it, so advise:) > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: [email protected] > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >[email protected] > >Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:45 PM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Re: Does NFPA 13 require as-built drawings > > > >Okay, but NFPA 25 pertains to maintenance of systems, not installation. > >I understand NFPA is saying: IF there are as-builts, they will be > >stored, etc. > > > >Forest Wilson > > > >Project Manager > >Cherokee Fire Protection Co. > >3195 Dayton Xenia Rd Ste 900 > >Dayton OH 45434 > > > >ph: 937-376-2333 > >fx: 614-455-4324 > >cell: 937-307-5647 > > > >Visit our blog: _www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com_ > >(http://www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com/) > > > > > >FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES!! > > > > > > > >NOTICE: The information contained in this email is intended to be >solely > >for > >the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and > >may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. > >It is not > > > >intended for transmission to, or receipt by, anyone other than the >named > >addressee (or a person authorized to deliver it to the named >addressee). > >It > >should > >not be copied or forwarded to any unauthorized persons. If you have > >received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it > >from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the > >sender of the error by reply email or by calling Cherokee Fire > >Protection Co. at 888-347-3079 toll free. > > > > > > > >In a message dated 3/25/2009 5:44:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > >[email protected] writes: > > > >Actually you'll find it in NFPA 25 as follows: > > > >" 12.3.2 As-built system installation drawings, original acceptance >test > >records, and device manufacturer's maintenance bulletins shall be > >retained to assist in the proper care of the system and its > >components." > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > >[email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > >to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >**************Great Deals on Dell 15" Laptops - Starting at $479 > >(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220635228x1201407499/aol?redi >r=ht >t > >p:%2F%2Fad.doub > >leclick.net%2Fclk%3B213153654%3B34689672%3Bo) > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > >[email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > >to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > >[email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > >to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >Todd G. Williams, PE >Fire Protection Design/Consulting >Stonington, Connecticut >www.fpdc.com >860.535.2080 >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
