Yes, yes we are on the same page just adding food for thought. No doubt this is an operations issue. To bad many first line chiefs and above are closer to the end of their career than in a place to stick around and make true cultural change. There are exceptions of course. But these people can't possible fix everything. And it's even tougher when the administrative level forgets what fightin' fyer, savin' lives, in my best NY accent, is all about and breaks the spirit of these change agents in the middle.
Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:41 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: High Rise Standpipes I don't disagree with you however ... The fact that the FD may "... need to be up to speed" or that that they might change equipment without consideration for the "as-built environment" in their area(s) of response isn't industry's fault. I can certainly help a fire official who isn't a standpipe expert acquire the information we need to make a cogent and well-informed decision on design, but if they don't know or aren't sure then it's time to reel in a BC or better yet a DC. One who's high enough on the food chain to initiate a culture change or otherwise make this a teachable episode wherein that particular FD raises its consciousness regarding how to deal with this issue in the future. It's not just an industry/FPO partnership, it's a prevention/suppression partnership that needs to be established. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 10:32 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: High Rise Standpipes "Keep in mind that nozzles will make decent patterns and less than rated pressures, but at lower-than-rated flows." And that is dangerous to a FF. It looks normal but isn't. FF can get into problems because it look like a big appropriate gun but isn't. "importance of partnering up with your serving FD before finalizing a standpipe design." True but they need to be up to speed and most are not. And you have a problem with and adopted law of NFPA 14 in many cases. 14 should really be sent back to a guide not a standard. "You have to know what they're bringing to the party before you just assume a particular discharge pressure at Class I outlets." Which is fine for today but the FD's are constantly changing and 6 months to years later what you designed for no longer exists. Now in the few that do know what they are talking about in standpipes would consider this before making changes. As you note in the SF case. Most will figure it out when they burn some out they shouldn't have. Thank God any new construction with standpipes are all sprinklered. Sprinklers cover nearly all mistakes by FF's. Some day, and maybe it already happened, FF's are going to be very surprised in the unsprinklered standpipe fight where they didn't understand they themselves screwed it up by bringing the wrong tools to the fight. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: High Rise Standpipes Keep in mind that nozzles will make decent patterns and less than rated pressures, but at lower-than-rated flows. And the trend in the nozzle biz is to offer tips that have selectable flows AND pressures, so that firefighters are better equipped for any eventuality. But yes, in many cases it's not as simple as most people think and this is why I am constantly harping in seminars and correspondence about the importance of partnering up with your serving FD before finalizing a standpipe design. You have to know what they're bringing to the party before you just assume a particular discharge pressure at Class I outlets. City of San Francisco recognized that they have standpipes that range from brand new to over 100 years old, so they now carry three sets of tips to allow for pressures down to 45 and up to 100 on automatic water supplies, as well as straight streams for the old undersized risers they still find in historic buildings. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jerry Costello Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:39 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: High Rise Standpipes Bottom line I guess... when you are required to flow Min.300 gpm at Min.125 psi from your floor hose valves, you are so far out on the valve design graph there is no simple solution. Jerry M Costello set Advance Fire Protection Ph 714-526-2231 Fax 562-691-5482 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Duross Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 4:48 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: High Rise Standpipes I'm relieved they did that Steve as they really don't work that well. They only list as 165, still bleed and continue to, and get worse manifolded. JP cycles bad. Great on FCV's, saves a PRFDV and works wonderful, providing at least a 30 PSI diff. Those Elk's are the best out there, Giacco's trying to keep up. Carry at least 30' for them, 20' for a regular one. Tom That's not my preferred method and NFPA 14 requires that if you do that - it is permissible - that you configure a manifold of at least two PRV's arranged so that the failure of one can be bypassed. Additionally, since they have minimum functional flow rates, you will have to put two more PRV's of a smaller diameter on the header, so account for the much lower flow rate of a single sprinkler or two or three. I personally prefer the "point of connection" valves because if one should start acting up or fail entirely, a firefighter can simply shut it down and get water from one level above or below the fire floor. Master PRV's have a global impact on the entire standpipe or zone. Steve Leyton Thanks again Steve, I have looked at a lot of valve curves recently and I agree that there are differences especially between factory set and field adj.type. Unfortunately we cannot use factory set in LA City anymore and none of the field adjustable that I have reviewed allow for the switch to standard valves, because of the pressure differential problem previously described. Have you (or anyone) ever installed a 4" or 6" pressure regulating valve such as the ClaVal 90G-21 vertically on your standpipe at the point in height where churn pressure break in elv.reaches 175psi. My thought is to use this larger pressure regulating valve to reduce standpipe pressure to 165 where standard valves can be utilized the rest of the way thru the roof. This should greatly reduce the needed pump pressure required keeping pressure down to 300 psi or below. Jerry M Costello set Advance Fire Protection Ph 714-526-2231 Fax 562-691-5482 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 1:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: High Rise Standpipes I'm not sure what make/model of valve you're considering, but there are a few out there with as little as 50 PSI differential. Check out the Wilkins ZW 4000 series; it's a "factory set" type valve (not field adjustable), but you can change out the restrictors in the field which makes them pretty flexible to commission. If you need field-adjustable type, go with the Z 3000 series. I think the Elkhart URFA valves - which are hyper-trick and very compact and can be adjusted both flowing and closed - are a supremely good product, but they do have a very high differential. Don't judge all reducing hose valves by the curves of just one or two. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jerry Costello Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 8:47 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: High Rise Standpipes Thanks Steve I really appreciate your input but I still do not follow , the Potter Roemer restricting valves are only listed for 175 psi inlet. As I see it I still have the same issue of having a needed residual 230 p...@300gall to get 1...@300 (or 250 depending on city) out when using the regulating valve (non-reg valves not allowed in LA). In a standard 12' floor elevation change +5psi loss you cannot get from a regulating to restricting in one floor because of the 175 listing on the restricting valve. Note I need more than 175 psi up thru approx 4 floors. Jerry M Costello set Advance Fire Protection Ph 714-526-2231 Fax 562-691-5482 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 7:41 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: High Rise Standpipes Jerry: There is invariably a break where the static (churn) pressure drops below 175 in the standpipes, but above which you may still want pressure regulation. This is exactly how we do it in Lo-Cal and you want to look into a pressure RESTRICTING hose valve. They are much less expensive than reducing valves, and very simple to adjust in the field. Check out the Potter-Roemer catalog. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jerry Costello Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 7:33 AM To: [email protected] Subject: High Rise Standpipes We are beginning to see more and more authorities require the class 1 outlets to supply 125 at 500 at roof and in the city of LA 125 psi at 300 gpm at all class 1 outlets. I seem to be finding that once you reach a building height sufficient to require sprk/hose regulating valves then they need to be installed all the way thru the roof. This because the adjustment of the valves for the 125 psi setting does not allow you to switch back to standard non regulating valves once you get to needed elevation as you could in the past. Since the settings for the adjustable valves require approx 230 psi/residual in to get 125psi residual out, we are seeing what seems to me a pump sized much larger than should be required. I have thought of installing pressure regulating valves on the main vertical standpipes at a certain height, but not sure this is good practice. Any thoughts? Are mfg companies addressing this issue on a possible redesign? Thanks for your time Jerry M Costello set Advance Fire Protection Ph 714-526-2231 Fax 562-691-5482 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4329 (20090812) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4329 (20090812) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4329 (20090812) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4330 (20090812) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
