I was not casting any aspersions on any manufacturer; nor was I jumping to a conclusion. It was more an observation. It may be (and could be likely) that some chemicals may be incompatible with one manufacturer's product and not another. A thought that I have not seen in any of the other posts on this topic, however the possibility does exist. I have also not heard of any installations with failure problems in locations with more than one manufacturer's product, which creates another interesting situation. We are in an age of discovery on this problem and the more information and observation out there, the more likely the correct solution will be found.
At 05:27 PM 11/2/2009, you wrote: >Todd, > >As always be careful when making conclusions from known data (which, >by the way, you didn't and so this is just a general admonishment). >When one is thinking about problems, and there four different >manufacturers' similar products in question, and only one of the >products is exhibiting the problem then the natural leap is to say, >"Aha! The problem has to do with XYZ Manufacturing." While that may be >the case it may rest with how the workers for ABC Installers, who are >the only ones using XYZ products, handle the materials. Or it may very >well be any other number of coincident causes, or combination of >causes all occurring only with the XYZ product, that I'm not going to >take the time to conjure on. > >On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Todd Williams <[email protected]> wrote: > > What is interesting in the case I originally posted this about is > > that pipe from 4 different manufacturers was installed on this job. > > All of the failures occurred with one manufacturer. I am prevented > > from going into any more detail because there is pending litigation. > > As soon as I can, I will. > > > > BTW, this is the same job from my other post where the ITM contractor > > showed up for the test without tools. > > > > "Unwashed", GC? Isn't that a simplification of "the great unwashed" > > which I believe was a quote by Spiro Agnew? > > > > > > > > > > At 04:52 PM 11/2/2009, you wrote: > >>Along that line, Steve, I understand from a discussion with peers > (50 of em, > >>not just our peer group) this Spring that the environmental stress frature > >>problem is being handled much better than initially. > >> > >>This was probably THE hottest topic in that discussion - with some wanting > >>to remain quiet about their problems with ESF, and some quite > vocal, bitter, > >>and feeling abandoned by those that could/should provide them support. > >> > >>The damages were tens of millions- nothing to be taken lightly by design > >>professionals, contractors, GCs/CMs or owners. Imagine a large residential > >>complex, occupied, with drywall ceilings and cracking pipe. > >> > >>Understand we've replaced 3 year old Allied galvanized pipe so this is not > >>intended to be a slam at CPVC in any way, shape or form- we use it daily. > >>As Mr. Muncy points out, > >>"Almost EVERY product has potential problems..." and I'll chop it early > >>since the problems aren't limited to compatibility- often the > unwashed don't > >>bother reading the mfr's installation guidelines and install outside > >>listings, or even more basic, don't bother to read the code and miss the > >>basics like interstitial space heads, pump churns over 200 PSI, etc. > >> > >>If any of you have encountered ESF problems, there's a guy quite > >>knowledgeable in the handling of them- and some of the baggage that's been > >>around, hopefully removed- I could track down for ya. > >> > >>glc > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: [email protected] > >>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Muncy > >>Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 4:30 PM > >>To: [email protected] > >>Subject: Re: Incompatible products with CPVC > >> > >>I don't normally weigh in on these issues, but I didn't see a response > >>to this posting. > >> > >>Lubrizol (BlazeMaster) has been aggressive in testing products to > >>assure compatibility with CPVC. This list of incompatible products is > >>much shorter than the listing of compatible products. My > >>understanding is that when BlazeMaster tests and puts a product on its > >>compatibility list, then Lubrizol stands behind their assertion of > >>compatibility as long as nothing changes in the composition of that > >>product (which is common sense.) > >> > >>It is wise for any company using CPVC to be aware of incompatible > >>products, and reassuring to know what products have been tested and > >>listed by Lubrizol as compatible with CPVC. > >> > >>You can get on the notification list at the Lubrizol web site to get > >>updates on new products added to their incompatible and compatible > >>lists. > >> > >>(This isn't a commercial for CPVC - but concerns about incompatibility > >>should be taken seriously. Almost EVERY product has potential problems > >>with incompatibility and it is helpful to have a source to check for > >>known problems.) > >> > >> > >> > >>Steve A. Muncy, CAE - President > >>American Fire Sprinkler Assn. -- FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES! > >>Dallas, TX > >>http://www.firesprinkler.org > >> > >> > >> > >>On Oct 29, 2009, at 3:11 PM, Russell wrote: > >> > >> > I may be the last person on this forum to know this but I felt I > >> > should > >> > share anyway. This link lists things that are incompatible with > >> > CPVC. As it > >> > turns out about the only thing it is compatible with is itself! > >> > > >> > http://www.lubrizol.com/BuildingSolutions/ChemicalCompatibility.html > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Russell Rewis > >> > Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. > >> > 107C Hemlock Street > >> > Valdosta, Georgia 31601 > >> > 229-244-8130 > >> > [email protected] > >> > > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>[email protected] > >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>[email protected] > >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > Todd G. Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, Connecticut > > www.fpdc.com > > 860.535.2080 > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >-- >Ron Greenman >Instructor >Fire Protection Engineering >Bates Technical College >Tacoma, WA > >Member: >SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
